Unexpected behavior change in pasture

[tres_grey]

I bought my 10yo Oldenburg gelding a little over a year ago, and he’s been a great amateur’s horse—easy to ride alone/at night, travels well, and jumps from anywhere every time. He’s a bit of a grump with the general public (snarled nose, pinned ears) and doesn’t love being touched, but he’s very kind to those he loves. He always nickers when I arrive, he rests his chin on my shoulder after rides, and we sometimes even have mutual grooming sessions.

He used to live in a small sandlot but is now boarded at a 100 acre farm. The pastures are huge. Horses are turned out in pairs, and he’s successfully gone out with a few different types: an anxious OTTB, a plucky 4YO draftX, and an easygoing ISH. They co-exist well, and my horse usually keeps to himself and quietly grazes. However, after 6 quiet months of being pasture buddies with the ISH, my horse kicked him, resulting in stitches. After 8 weeks apart and removing my horse’s back shoes, we tried turning them out together again, and to my horror, my horse tried to pin the ISH on the ground.

The barn owner says my horse is fine 90% of the time but gets mad for no reason. I’m sad and concerned about this change in behavior. Has anyone else experienced a similar shift in their horse’s personality? Did you find a cause? I’m planning to consult the vet to rule out any medical issues. He is his normal self on the ground and riding. He’s currently on individual turnout and is fine sharing fence lines.

Thank you!

[Foxglove]

If possible, have him checked to see if he was proud cut (cryptochid).

Another idea is that perhaps he was used as a stud at some point? My lovely Bob was sold to me at below his value because he is herd aggressive --he cannot be turned out with another horse. In his case, it’s because (my trainer/vet/farrier) tell me Bob was used as a breeding stallion until he was 4 years old --and he pasture bred his mares. After he was gelded, the breeder said she had to sell him because he was aggressive to the other geldings. When I brought him home a year ago, I turned him out in a big pasture with a huge old dressage horse (unsound for riding, enjoying his retirement here). I put cameras on them. Bob would not leave that poor horse alone. Twenty-four hours a day, Bob would push him around bump him fake bite at him, pin his ears. After two days of that, I put Bob in his own pasture (fortunately the old dressage horse was pasture buddies with another unsound horse I kept here in retirement. They got on fine).

In all my horse owning years I’ve never had a horse that couldn’t/wouldn’t be part of a herd.

But, Bob’s herd aggression meant I could afford a very, very nice horse!

[GraceLikeRain]

Personally, I’d run a Hormonal panel, scope for ulcers, and never have him go out with that horse again. Pining to the ground is extreme and very abnormal behavior. I’d imagine the owner of the other horse would feel the same way.

[Marla_000]

I’ve witnessed this twice with 2 different imported WB dressage horses. One was late gelded and
Possibly used for breeding.
He would even attack other horses along the shared fence line. Also was told that it was common in Europe to keep horses in solitary pens and not socialized.

[Bluey]

We bought a five year old that, once here for a while behind fences from four other geldings and no signs of any problems to come, the day turned out with them, after roaming a bit, new horse ran at the meekest, knocked him down and was holding him down by the neck, kneeing on him.
I got him away and put him up.
That kind of aggression so out of the blue for humans I had not seen before, after decades of all kinds of horse herds, is scary to remember.

After asking around, a. neighboring ranch had a tough group of older ranch horses and took this one in, turned him with them.
Those oldsters taught him some manners, beat on him a little, but made a more congenial horse of him, they told me.
Their one son started riding him and loved him, so there he ended up.
Over the years, they reported he was still unpredictable, but kept with the older mean geldings he got along ok.

Not sure you can change who a horse is to insure a very aggressive one will not repeat when the circumstances show up again and hurt others?
Good luck, maybe the vet can find something that can be helped, like a hormonal disfunction.

[Simkie]

Is it possible that his previous living situation was due to this type of behavior?

The snarky, don’t touch me, stuff with people could be from Lyme, EPM, or just pain in general. Has he been tested? Are you in an area where Lyme and EPM are common? Did you do a PPE before purchase? Any of that could translate to being a terror with others.

Totally agree that he should not be going out with others, perhaps ever again. If a cause can be found and treatment leads to a very clear change in behavior/demeanor, maybe it could be considered.

[NaturallyHappy]

@Simkie

Totally agree that he should not be going out with others, perhaps ever again.

Ditto… the liability is HUGE!

[2DogsFarm]

@Simkie

Totally agree that he should not be going out with others, perhaps ever again. If a cause can be found and treatment leads to a very clear change in behavior/demeanor, maybe it could be considered.

THIS!
Unless the other horses are also yours (& even then), I’d question gambling on the safety of others’ animals.
FWIW:
I had a TWH, got him as a 10yo, gelded at 8.
He had sired a colt registered w/TWHBEA, don’t know if he had any others. But he’d been used as a Teaser too.
He lived compatibly with my TB gelding, often the 2 shared a single 12X12 stall, they had free access from pastures.
The TB, OTOH, when boarded had gone out in a group of 5 geldings w/o issues. He’d sometimes herd them, but not aggressively.
He had some snarky ground manners, track leftovers, but never dangerous to humans.
When we changed barns he adapted to a new turnout group of 4. He was not Boss in this group.
After another move, turnout was with DH’s new horse - just the 2.
Then I bought a 3yo OTTB, in partnership.
We had them in adjoining paddocks, our 2 one side of the fenceline, Newb on the other.
There was initially some squealing/striking from the TB, then they ignored each other.
But after a couple weeks, when we tried adding the new guy to the Herd of 2, TB came racing at us, ears flat, neck snaked, teeth bared.
TG, I had Newb’s lead still on & was close enough to the gate to get myself & him the heck back out!
Apparently TB was guarding his “herd”.
Experiment was not repeated.

[moonlitoaksranch]

Did he attack the same horse twice? It might be something about that horse. I saw a very peaceful herd react badly to a particular horse. Watching carefully, it seemed as though the horse did not understand the body language of the herd members. She ignored pinned ears and small gestures. When the lead mare body slammed her, she just went back to what she was doing. We separated that horse into her own pen and the herd settled down. Was the
mare a bottle baby? Was she weaned early or isolated at a young age? No idea. But it was clearly poor communication.

If the ISH gets along fine with all the other horses, then it’s your horse. However, if your horse is fine with all others, it could be a personality thing.

[Demerara_Stables]

I have a similar story for you: I have a herd of 4-5 at home, and after initial settling in with new horses, everyone gets along great. My mare had a best buddy gelding, both 18yo at the time. He hadn’t been in herd turnout until he came to me but after the initial setting in period he got along with everyone really well, a nice quiet guy. The two of them were stalled next to each other with low stall walls so they can see and touch each other, and out on pasture 24/7 together except for feeding time.

One night I let them out after dinner and they both took off to the bottom of the field. After much galloping in the dark, I finally caught and separated them. My mare had kicked him in the jaw (maybe she was in season and he got a little friendly?). I separated them for the night and put them back together in the morning. More chasing (him chasing her) ensued, with him being very angry, ears pinned and teeth bared. This was not a “I’m interested because you’re in season” chase, he was pissed.

I had to separate them for two(?) months and only re introduced them very carefully and a little bit at a time once they were hanging out next to each other on opposite sides of a fence. After a week of slow supervised introduction, they went back out together and were back to being good buddies for another year until he was retired and moved to another barn.

The point of sharing this is to say that maybe something just happened. If they were fine for a long time and all of the sudden they aren’t, then it’s highly unlikely that your horse (or the other horse) has a hormonal issue or was bred and that’s why he’s like this. That behavior would have shown up right away. It is probably best to separate them, at least for a while, and maybe they can never go together again. I don’t think this is cause to never put your horse with another horse again, but herd dynamics can be weird and you need an experienced barn manager to figure out who should go with who.

@tres_grey

gets mad for no reason.

There’s always a reason, and it’s almost always herd dynamics.

[RedHorses]

The problem is the barn owner is taking on a huge liability risk if they put your horse out with anyone else’s horse. At best, if your horse goes for and injured another horse the barn owner will be paying for vet care. At worst they might have to pay damages for a horse with career ending injuries.

It’s unlikely that another horse owner would agree to having their horse turned out with yours, and take on the risk of injury. As a responsible owner, you will need to disclose these incidents, without minimizing them, to any future boarding operation and let them decide what turnout risks they will accept.

I was at a barn when one gelding went after another in the group of five. He had knocked the victim down, was kneeling on him and tearing at the horse’s body with his teeth when the BO chased him off. The facility didn’t have single turnout available and the horse owner had to move him as the BO wasn’t willing to accept the risk of the horse attacking another one.

It’s not that your horse can never be trusted with another horse. It’s that neither you, nor the BO can reasonably expect anyone else to risk their horse in turnout with yours.

[Demerara_Stables]

@RedHorses

The problem is the barn owner is taking on a huge liability risk if they put your horse out with anyone else’s horse.

This is the case in every group turnout situation, anywhere. Saying it’s dangerous to put horses together is why we have so many anxious horses with ulcers. Yes, they have to be managed, yes, you need an experienced manager that knows how to introduce horses and read herd dynamics, but it is possible in all but an extremely rare few scenarios, and OP’s isn’t one (based on the information we have).

[endlessclimb]

My Old Man has NEVER exhibited these behaviors. Shayney either. Confession either. Even mean little Grundy hasn’t taken a horse to the ground and tried to seriously injure them.

Once a horse shows that they are willing to go FULL OUT to injure another horse, they are a different risk than the horse who has never exhibited those behaviors.

I would not agree to any of my horses being turned out with an unpredictable horse who will try and kill them without warning.

[sascha]

@Demerara_Stables

OP’s isn’t one (based on the information we have).

Did you miss the part where OP said her horse pinned another horse to the ground?

I’ve seen the outcome of this type of aggression, and it ultimately ended in death. The reason it happened (whatever we think that may be), and

@Demerara_Stables

an experienced manager

are not the answer to keeping ALL horses safe. Turning OP’s horse out with others should be a hard no from the most experienced managers who understand that there is risk and there is RISK and OP’s horse sadly presents a RISK to his pasture mates.

Once we unclip and close the gate, horses are on their own time. If they demonstrate inability to play nicely with others, it is our responsibility to keep ALL of the horses in the pasture safe, whether that is trying them with new friends or segregating one who has shown severe aggression.

@tres_grey I don’t believe you gave the age or health status of the ISH that your horse pinned, but it may be something to think about. In the instance I mentioned above, the attacked horse was older and had health issues and probably should not have been in with a fit and feisty group of mares. Yes, all mares. They can also get their aggression on for what appears to be no reason. Well over 99% of the time that field was quiet and all got along perfectly. Then, there was one fairly minor incident. Then there was the major pinning to the ground with apparent intent to kill a few weeks later. I hope to never see the results of such a horrible attack again

[tres_grey]

Thank you all for the suggestions! I agree, it’s a huge risk to turn a unpredictable horse out with others. I’d like to focus the discussion on potential causes. Noted the hormonal check and scope. Thank you!

I wanted to clarify that my horse tried to pin, but he was unsuccessful. Still equally horrific. The ISH is a healthy, athletic 10 year, a couple inches taller than my horse.

My horse is locally bred, and I know his full history. He’s only been with his breeder (0–4), his owner before me (4–9), and me (9+). There haven’t been any other incidents. The previous owner kept him in the sandlot because the barn owner is particular about horses on her pasture and prefers quiet horses that don’t run. The breeder turned him out in mixed company.

[RedHorses]

Not the same thing at all. A horse with a known history of actually aggressively knocking another (healthy) horse down is significantly higher risk to other horses in the same turnout area than just the usual group turnout risk. Most of the anecdotes of horse attacks on pasture mates occured after a long period of calm. I doubt that very many experienced managers would spend enough time watching amicable groups to catch this sort of situation before it occurred.

I can accept injury in group turnout, but if the attacking horse had a known history of doing so I’d be expecting the BO and horse owner to pay damages and remove that horse from the group permanently, otherwise I’d be moving ASAP and letting everyone I knew why. I wouldn’t board anywhere the BO chose to put a horse with a history like this into boarder group turnout either.

I agree that solo turnout contributes to poor social skills in horses, however in today’s world where most people own one horse and board it out, it is unreasonable to expect them to risk serious injury to their horse in an attempt to create a better situation for someone else’s horse. If the BO wants to risk their own personal horses, that’s their choice.

[Demerara_Stables]

Oh my bad I forgot this is COTH, the land of no second chances and where horses can never change.

[Simkie]

@Demerara_Stables

Oh my bad I forgot this is COTH, the land of no second chances and where horses can never change.

He got a second chance.

He kicked this horse, causing a laceration large enough to suture. Then they pulled the hind shoes, reintroduced, and he tried to pin the horse to the ground.

That’s NOT normal. That’s not your run of the mill “they just need more time/better intro/more knowledgeable management.”

[cayuse]

I have mini who was gelded late, may have been used for breeding, and also had to “fight” big horses for hay scraps. Some friends and I were out in the field and witnessed this mini run up to and attack my other mini. He clobbered him from the front several times then turned, lined up and barreled into him backward getting up and under him with his haunches and flipping him into the air high enough that he pancaked onto his side with the wind knocked out of him, he the started to go after him again. I got them separated. Friends said they were certain he was out to kill the other mini and I’m pretty sure there’s some truth to that. I have no clue what mini’s problem was but he gets solo turnout now. The mini he attacked had also been gelded late and used for breeding so maybe it was some leftover behavior from that but IDK. He’s a good fella aside from that, never exhibited any aggression at other times.
Who knows what goes through their minds.

[jvanrens]

@Demerara_Stables

Oh my bad I forgot this is COTH, the land of no second chances and where horses can never change.

So how would you like it if this type of horse seems changed for the better and then tried to beat the hell out of your horse? Whose horse would you use as the guinea pig in the experiment? If it was mine you’d be out of business.