Uninterested Gelding

[LawsofMurph]

Yay for first time posting! I’ve been lurking on here for a while and have finally broken down and actually joined the site in order to ask my own question.

I have a 14 y/o Appendix Quarter Horse gelding and the two of us have just recently departed the hunter world in favor of dressage. Bought a very nice Wintec dressage saddle that fits him beautifully and at first he loved the change!
In fact, the first few days of a new activity is met with excitement on his part and a willingness to work. The first time we saddled up dressage was the most exciting thing I’ve ever felt with him. But I’ve felt his interest leaving the arena.

It’s been two months and he is now back to the old tactics that made me switch from hunters. He just stops. No warning, no obvious reason. He just ceases to move. And won’t. It’s almost as if he decides right then and there that we are done. Obviously, I don’t let him get away with that, but getting him back to work is a super exhausting experience that leads me frustrated and angry with him. Which I really don’t want to be.
Not only that, but getting him into a faster pace is overly complicated. He doesn’t respond well to whips or spurs (he listens but doesn’t care) so I’ve been trying a less is more kind of thing.

I have a trainer that, due to various reasons, I only see once a month or so.
When we ride with a trainer, however, he is an angel and listens to all cues within a reasonable time; which leads me to believe that the problem is mine. I know I still hunter perch and need to sit back and am working towards more length in my leg (I need a leather punch to fix my stirrup leathers), but what else could I be doing wrong? There must be something I’m doing in my seat that hinders him somehow.

Also, he gets bored faster than an ADD toddler and I some times have trouble coming up with fun ideas to throw into our rides together. He doesn’t care if there are other horses in the ring or not either.

Wow, this was long, but I really want to try and explain his (and my) issues as best as possible because I know this forum community has been helpful to others!

Here is a quick photo we took last week.

[Superminion]

How often do you just do ‘fun’ things, like pop over a fence or two, go for a hack, pluck around bareback, etc.? I’ve found with my mare (whose quarter also runs out pretty often) that when I do one or two ‘fun’ rides a week, and get her out of the dressage ring, her mind is much better and she’s willing to return to the harder stuff with more enthusiasm.

[seabreeze]

Do you ride in the same place every day? Do you take him out or trail ride him? Cavaletti/ground poles every few days or so? Just wondering because I have one who gets insolent on Day 3 of doing the “same thing” (which can even mean the same setting).

Good luck!

[seabreeze]

Super & I were posting at same time.

[ThreeFigs]

A passle of great minds thinking alike here. My guy will get bored quickly, too. Trail rides are his cure of choice. He cannot jump, due to an old injury, but strangely, still enjoys cavalletti trot grids.

Also, are you SURE your saddle fits him well? Wintec trees are the inverted V shape, and most QH types I know need a “hoop” shaped tree. Can you borrow somebody’s Neidersuss, Albion, County or other hoop-treed saddle? Just to see how he goes?

Another thought, and take it for what little it’s worth: In the photo, it looks as if you’re working mightily to keep him “round” and he’s on the forehand. Not unusual for horses learning to go in a different discipline. Do you give him rest moments to stretch? Do you incorporate many transitions and half-halts to help him learn to rebalance and use his hind end more?

He’s a very handsome fellow and the two of you look well-matched and capable!

[LawsofMurph]

My horse is… not a trail horse. He doesn’t enjoy it for some reason. The last time we went out he had a nervous jig the whole time and broke out in a nervous sweat. He’s been that way since I’ve owned him. I assumed he would grow out of it but… no. He’s 14 now.

And I love to incorporate jumping into our exercises! He loves to jump! However, I can hardly get a trot active enough to get over an 18" obstacle. I’ve set up patterns, put together a course of cones to maneuver, and even set up a cloverleaf of poles to encourage bending. Nothing. I even did a day of free jumping to get his mind off dressage.

ETA: He does enjoy plowing around on the forehand. When I feel him pulling I try to give him more rein to make him hold his own body up. We definitely takes ample minutes to stretch because this is all new to him.
Also, I will try to find someone with a different saddle. But he really loved the new saddle the first week or so before he realized we were going to do real work

[ThreeFigs]

Okay, so he does not perk up at the sight of jumps and become more forward? He loves it but remains slow & lazy? Does he fret with other horses on the trail?

I just had another thought. Do you tend to pinch with your knees & thighs? This is a Hunterland habit (rightly so) that can cause some horses to go slow. Mares especially, but geldings are not immune. If you have trouble following the movement of his gaits, this can cause the horse to slow, quicken or stiffen up. Since he seems to be an angel during lessons, can you think of anything you do differently in the lesson that you don’t do at home? Can you get videotape of both lesson rides and home practice and compare the two?

Just throwing things out there.

Oh, when he starts to lean on your hands, “drop” one rein momentarily. He can’t lean on you if you’re only holding one rein. It’s uncomfortable! Holding up a big boy like him will give you “Arnold Arms”!

[Countrywood]

Good looking horse!

You said he had the same problems doing hunters, he would just stop and then refuse to move. And he does not want to go forward. This is pretty unusual behavior, so he either has a physical issue or is sour (or both, they interact)

Have you had a vet and or chiropractor go over him? My gelding had some sourness/balking problems and lot of it was physical which we have been addressing (finally seeing success) Adequan, needed a chiro adjustment, hocks injected once a year. My guy is 15. In the early teens is often when arthritis or other problems crop up , so check that all out.

Regarding the training, my horse got real balky and instead of fighting him and urging him forward, I’d boot him around in small circles, which really got his attention and woke him up. Usually one circle is all that is needed. I also am now warming him up on grass trails or track then we do some dressage in arena and it is like night and day, super forward now.

Regarding your riding, your hands are a bit low and perhaps he is not ready to be in so much of a frame if he won’t willingly go forward. But you look great on him and he is a handsome strong guy so best of luck. (saddle checked too of course)

[lpcutter]

When I look at your photo I can see that your wrist is stiff and shoulders are hunched forward. From your post and picture I would suggest that you allow your horse to move forward with little contact. Ask him to bend in a circle with just the tip of his nose to the inside using one rein flexing gently around your leg. Alternate directions but use only the inside rein. You will feel moments of lightness where he gives to your hand and carries the bit with comfort. As these moments become more frequent then close your opposing hand on the rein and give your horse a moment to travel lightly and comfortaby on the bit. I have done this in as few as 2 or 3 sessions with a green horse.
I think your sudden stopping problem is in protest to the horse feeling forced into a “headset”. He is trying to explain to you that he is not balanced. If you can’t get help from a trainer maybe you can find a good ammy to give you help. Your horse looks cute and I think a slight change in your approach would be helpful.

[LawsofMurph]

[QUOTE=ThreeFigs;7000250]
Okay, so he does not perk up at the sight of jumps and become more forward? He loves it but remains slow & lazy? Does he fret with other horses on the trail?[/QUOTE]
Yes. It is quite a contradiction. However, an eventer friend of mine can have him jump a course with batting an eyelash so I’m assuming rider error here.

@ThreeFigs;7000250

Do you tend to pinch with your knees & thighs? This is a Hunterland habit (rightly so) that can cause some horses to go slow. Mares especially, but geldings are not immune. If you have trouble following the movement of his gaits, this can cause the horse to slow, quicken or stiffen up.

Pinching sounds like something I definitely do. In the past, dear old Murphy was insane (bad reaction to a high sugar feed) and I developed severe defensive strategies when riding and have only recently been able to realize he’s not going to buck anymore. It’s been a long struggle but I’ve been trying to do the right things for him.

I think when I ride with instructors they are able to point out the small things that make me ride better overall. It’s hard to self regulate when your focused on other things. When I rode yesterday I tried to keep my legs off his sides until I needed leg and that seemed to be an improvement, but not a big one.

[QUOTE=Countrywood;7000257]
Have you had a vet and or chiropractor go over him? [/QUOTE]

He had his general look over this past month and has seen the vet regularly since I’ve owned him. Chiropractors, however, are outside my price range. I would love to do it, but I don’t have extra funds to redirect towards it.

I like to give him ample time to warm up without my interfering hands-wise. I still try to make him do forward but let him do it with requiring any sort of frame. And shockingly, he often will frame himself.

Like I said, I think this is a rider error because I’ve watched other people make him go beautifully.

Also it’s not sudden. He’s had this problem even back in Hunterworld. The switch to dressage actually brought more movement and less stopping.

[LawsofMurph]

I’d also like to thank you guys for the wonderful tips!
I love my Murphy boo and want him to be the best he can be!

[rabicon]

First from the photo I’d say you need to bring your hands up out of your lap. You are restricting him with your hand and your thigh. Open your hip angle and open your thigh. Bring your hand up with a little longer rein and push him forward into that longer rein. As you get him listening to the forward there you can then bring in a shorter contact but IMO right now you are probably blocking I’m with your hand and thigh trying to keep his head up in a frame and it maybe easier to retrain yourself with a bit longer contact so your not as restricting.

I will set up barrels in the ring with my guy from time to time. Do a Texas barrel pattern with him in the trot or cloverleaf pattern and let him canter home just to change his brain a bit. I’ll also use cones to weave with just leg and seat. Cavalettis are good also. Not really a jump so he may perk a bit with them. I’ll also use the barrels or jump standards and put them in a row and do qhs type eq patterns with him. It just changes up the round and round we go at trot then canter blah. My guy likes trails so we do that some to. Could you hack him right outside the ring and do your ring work on the outside of it? Or maybe just hack him around the barn some etc. Not really out on a trail, so he is getting out of the ring yet he isn’t away from the barn and friends. I’ll ride my guy once in a while in his pasture. We have actually set jumps up in the pasture before and jumped there as well.

[rabicon]

Also, in dressage your leg should hang down around the horse yet be quite. You shouldn’t “take your leg off”. If he were mine I’d ask for forward by my leg wrapping around him and picking him up with the squeeze to engage his hind end and also use my seat. Sit deep and drive him. If he doesn’t immediately respond (since he doesn’t care about a whip or spur) I’d give him one good pop with the whip. Not a soft tap and then add just a hey wake up pop from the get go and go back to leg. If he still doesn’t give any sort of response I’d venture to say this maybe a respect issue with you as his rider and he has got your number a bit. You may have to go back to ground work to make him realize you can move his feet when, where, and how fast you want and then take that back to the saddle.

I would have him looked over once more by a vet also and look at his hocks also to rule out that he is sore possibly somewhere.

[LawsofMurph]

Everybody has given me excellent advice! I’m excited to go out to the barn tomorrow and try to excite my pony and attempt to not block him.

He has moments of brilliance so maybe I can be just as inspirational haha!

[_BrionesRider]

Have you ever worked in the arena without worrying about him being on the bit, or having contact? From your picture I would say that he’s sour from you hanging on him.

[jcotton]

I agree with the other posters. I suggest transitions: walk-trot, walk-canter, trot-halt, any combination of transitions. Leg-yields in all gaits for supplying & awareness of your leg (knees open!), & seat.

And ride him with less contact, you look like you are forcing him into a behind the vert frame. Perhaps you need lunge lessons to work on your position and confidence.

I would persist with hacking him out and do not react to his jigging. Ignore the jigging, he may need time to get over it and if you do not react, he may get over it sooner.
My 5 yr old thinks jigging is good to do, I ignore it and keep after him to walk or we do little tiny circles(trot) until he focuses on what I want. Tiny circles are hartd work compared to walking.

[Superminion]

Just out of curiosity, do you have access to any other horses to take for a spin to see if you have the same problem with them running out of juice?

Also, I’ve found that riding bareback has helped me fix a lot of my hunter princess ways (I rode hunters for years before getting bit by the dressage bug, so I get how hard those old habits die). Take him for a spin bareback and see if he still has problems moving forward. Focus on sitting deeply and letting your leg hang.

He looks in the picture like he’s hanging on your hand. I’ve learned that a quick release and a gentle take back (but it all done quickly… yea, I know) is best to help them reset themselves. Almost like a reverse half halt. He’ll probably fall on his face, which is the point. Work your arm a bit like a piston and don’t actually let the rein out. There is a technique to it that takes some practice, but it really does help!

Finally, and I don’t mean this to be snarky, but I’m reading a lot of “Murphy can’t.” “Murphy doesn’t.” “Murphy won’t.” and then I read that you’ve recently realized that he’s not going to buck anymore. Those defensive habits don’t just drop away (I know, my mare and I had a pretty rough start). Can some of it be mental on your part that makes you think that he can’t/won’t be forward/trail ride/jump over 18"? Maybe he doesn’t respond to the whip or spur because you haven’t really used them in fear that he will react badly? My mare used to buck when I sent her forward with any amount of force she didn’t like (so…anything…even a cluck), so I get not wanting to get after him now that you’ve got a history with him. I finally actually got after her and all the sudden she was Miss yes ma’am, no ma’am. I don’t know your history with him at all, just noting something that jumped out at me while reading through your responses, especially when you said that other people can get him to go beautifully.

[HealingHeart]

I think it’s great to adjust to your horses needs and ability. Dressage is just as demanding as hunters and 1 thing you need to remember, although he is willing for the most part, he also growing older. His body can be more sore than when younger and he just worked through it. How’s his hocks? You may need to consider maintance type remedies to help support just getting older. Check everything, feet sore, hocks, back etc…even teeth

He is trying to tell you something nicely, that he can not do any more…when he stops… And it can even be burnt out, but it does sound like it… Keep enjoying

[QUOTE=LawsofMurph;7000214]
My horse is… not a trail horse. He doesn’t enjoy it for some reason. The last time we went out he had a nervous jig the whole time and broke out in a nervous sweat. He’s been that way since I’ve owned him. I assumed he would grow out of it but… no. He’s 14 now.

And I love to incorporate jumping into our exercises! He loves to jump! However, I can hardly get a trot active enough to get over an 18" obstacle. I’ve set up patterns, put together a course of cones to maneuver, and even set up a cloverleaf of poles to encourage bending. Nothing. I even did a day of free jumping to get his mind off dressage.

ETA: He does enjoy plowing around on the forehand. When I feel him pulling I try to give him more rein to make him hold his own body up. We definitely takes ample minutes to stretch because this is all new to him.
Also, I will try to find someone with a different saddle. But he really loved the new saddle the first week or so before he realized we were going to do real work :P[/QUOTE]

[InstigatorKate]

Get creative! My horse and I have been going through the same thing. I’ve been trying to mix it up as much as I can. I got on him bareback with a rope halter this week and he thought THAT was the bee’s knees! We’ve been alternating hacking, jumping, bareback, ground work, lungeing, games, and just about anything else I can conjure up. Some horses that sour easily really take to games and trick training.

[CrowneDragon]

One thing to add to the above, is to make sure the saddle fits you in addition to him. It is hard to tell from one photo where you may be posting, but it looks small for you. Dressage saddles are usually fit an inch larger in the seat than close contact saddles, so if you normally ride in a 17", try an 18", etc. If you are smooshed into a too-small saddle, that also concentrates a lot of weight on a small bearing surface for him. He definitely looks like he has the length of back to accommodate a bigger saddle.