A friend has a mare by a popular stallion that won’t stay sound. She has exhausted her funds on this horse and has already bought another. She’s wanting to let someone use her for breeding which has me, 1. Concerned about breeding an unsound mare. Which btw I know of two others by the same stallion who didn’t hold up. And 2. Interested. She’s a REALLY nice mare. Beautiful and a fantastic mover/jumper.
Opinions?
The first thing that springs to mind is WHY is she unsound? What is the diagnosis? And is it heritable?
It sounds to me that if you know two others in the family line who “didn’t hold up” you have your answer.
[QUOTE=DarkBayUnicorn;8594108]
The first thing that springs to mind is WHY is she unsound? What is the diagnosis? And is it heritable?
It sounds to me that if you know two others in the family line who “didn’t hold up” you have your answer.[/QUOTE]
This!!! Do you really want to breed a future heartache?
Just because it has a uterus doesn’t mean it should be used for breeding.
[QUOTE=Tory;8594143]
Just because it has a uterus doesn’t mean it should be used for breeding.[/QUOTE]
100% Agree
Definitely not. She’s unsound with lots of unknowns. I would only breed if unsoundness was provably situational. That’s not really the word I’m looking for, but I can’t find the one I want!
[QUOTE=m&m;8594529]
Definitely not. She’s unsound with lots of unknowns. I would only breed if unsoundness was provably situational. That’s not really the word I’m looking for, but I can’t find the one I want![/QUOTE]
Agreed, there has to 100% proof that the lameness is due non-genetic reasons. (I.e. trailer accident, witnessed kick from other horse, known improper training, etc)
Do your homework. Is the sire widely used? Other than the 3 you know of, is there scuttlebutt about others? Are breeders still using him? If there are 3 of, say, 20 foals that’s one thing, but if there are 3 or 25 or 30 out of a 1000, that’s something else entirely.
Do the horses have the same or similar unsoundnesses? Are those of a kind that are generally considered to have a genetic component? How old is she, what was her discipline, and how long and how hard was she worked?
If the sire and the mare are in a registry like KWPN, you might ask to see his stats and tell them why you want to know.
If she is a very accomplished mare, it will be worth your time to do a lot of research. You will also want a breeding soundness exam, and at the same time you can discuss the unsoundness with the vet you choose.
The sire is very widely used. I’ve done done research and it appears that some people have concerns about straightness of forelimbs but no actually examples of why. One of the offspring I’m unsure of diagnosis. One that I know had arthritis in his coffin joint at 8 years old. He was also gigantic. This mare had a suspensory issue, and now undiagnosed foot lameness. She also had surgery on a osteo lesion, not diagnosed as OCD but it still worries me. I think it’s not to be. I guess if I’m worried about it at all I should pass.
As a side note, is it bad form to talk about a stallion if I have concerns about soundness? I don’t want to trash talk anyone’s cash cow (horse?) But he is pretty widely used and I do think it’s a little to coincidental that the 3 I know are all unsound to varying degrees.
I used to be in the camp of, “don’t breed her.”
But the longer I’m in the breeding world, the more I truly believe you can’t make these judgement calls until you’re staring at the horse in front of you.
Obviously you want to stack the deck in your favor when breeding, but nothing is certain. There are so many factors…
I’ll spare you the anecdotes, but I could easily tell you the stories of dozens of unsound and seemingly unsuitable mares who went on to produce much better than themselves. I could also tell you about just as many mares who expectedly or unexpectedly produced garbage.
But I will say, suspensory/foot/ocd problems can all be as much of a management issue as they can be congenital. So from that standpoint, I would be especially slow to pass judgement on suitability or sire without more knowledge.
How was (is) her mother ? What about her siblings ? If these horses also had (have) problems, I wouldn’t breed her !
Otherwise I agree with texarkana !
If you decide to breed her, choose a stallion who is known for solid leg / foot conformation and heredity.
Use a stallion who doesn’t make giants and do not start working to early.
[QUOTE=triplethreat;8594563]
The sire is very widely used. I’ve done done research and it appears that some people have concerns about straightness of forelimbs but no actually examples of why. One of the offspring I’m unsure of diagnosis. One that I know had arthritis in his coffin joint at 8 years old. He was also gigantic. This mare had a suspensory issue, and now undiagnosed foot lameness. She also had surgery on a osteo lesion, not diagnosed as OCD but it still worries me. I think it’s not to be. I guess if I’m worried about it at all I should pass.
As a side note, is it bad form to talk about a stallion if I have concerns about soundness? I don’t want to trash talk anyone’s cash cow (horse?) But he is pretty widely used and I do think it’s a little to coincidental that the 3 I know are all unsound to varying degrees.[/QUOTE]
I would think twice about doing it in writing on a public board like this. But probably not a bad idea to walk away.
I think there is entirely too much emphasis on the stallion with this conversation. OBdB has asked the right question. What about the mother? What are her other offspring like? Frankly, I would also be asking,“Would you be breeding if you weren’t given a free mare?”. If that answer is no, then don’t breed the free one.
Tim
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;8594836]
I think there is entirely too much emphasis on the stallion with this conversation. OBdB has asked the right question. What about the mother? What are her other offspring like? Frankly, I would also be asking,“Would you be breeding if you weren’t given a free mare?”. If that answer is no, then don’t breed the free one.
Tim[/QUOTE]
I agree with this 100%. If you had to pay for the use of this Mare would you still want to use her as a broodmare?
Great point!
I actually have wanted to breed this mare for quite some time. The question about paying for use; if I decided to overlook the soundness issues, yes I would pay to use her.
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