Unsportsmanlike conduct at Hampton Classic

[dags]

@DrBeckett

A couple of posts up says this is not abuse? Really? What exactly would you call it? I think it is the definition of abuse. This is not something normal people do. I believe that this behavior is traumatizing to the animal, making it abuse. Did you see the horse backing away from her? Do you really think this was the first time she did this? It’s definitely abuse. I don’t want to see PETA in on it, nor do I think she should be banned for life, but a good suspension may help.

Any horse is going to back away if you run at them (as would I). I admittedly haven’t run at a ton of horses, but I’ve made darn strong advances into their space and none has yet to be emotionally scarred by it. Regardless, you can’t include “running at” in the definition of abuse. It’s silly.

Ya guys need to give this “poor horse” some credit here as we have some real bubble-wrap culture going on. He’s a horse, he’s fine, his buddies do this to him with a lot more accuracy on a regular basis (if he’s allowed social turnout :lol:). He went home I’m sure to good bedding, food, and attention. He has videos all over the place in fine health and decidedly un-abused. You can infer what you want about what his program & the downfall of Hunterdom, but you (and I) have zero - let me repeat, ZERO - knowledge of his life. The biggest harm to him right now? He is The Horse That Dumped His Rider at The Hamptons. So when he shows up bargain priced because he can’t sell, and you are dying to prove you can stick that, have at it.

[OverandOnward]

@dags

I just can’t anymore on this.

No one is calling the horse dirty.

And the horse jumped the fence, so no one is calling it a dirty stopper either.

But that move, rooting immediately on landing, when all of physics is working against you, is a dirty move. Dirty move, not dirty horse.

Do I think the horse is plotting and sinister? Hell no. But nearly all of them come with tricks and on the trick scale this is a real sneaky one. One that can easily become learned behavior, render him a real safety threat, and leave him in a very bad way.

So no, I don’t “blame” the horse. But anyone that just writes this off as typical equine shenanigans is not doing this beast any favors.

Not that any of that matters, because her response was still out of line.

Multiple posters said “the horse is dirty” or “was dirty”. If I get the time, I’ll go back and quote them all to this point. That’s where I got the phrase, from this thread.

But nearly all of them come with tricks and on the trick scale this is a real sneaky one. One that can easily become learned behavior, render him a real safety threat, and leave him in a very bad way.

Horses are not sneaky. They don’t have the thinking power for “sneaky”. That is an anthropomorphic term.

The behavior is just a horse doing what is easiest, which is what horses do. It is up to the rider to handle it.

Yes, absolutely that can become a learned behavior - and that is not “sneaky”, it is bad riding. If the rider is having a problem with it - and the rider’s violence against the horse could be a red flag that she is - then the rider has to stop until she gets sufficient help to handle it. Because if it is occurring repeatedly, then absolutely it is being learned by the horse.

That isn’t “sneaky”. It’s learning. Just as jumping is also learning. The horse does NOT know the difference, does not know what is at stake, does not know anything but what is happening in the moment in the context of however the horse remembers prior experience.

I was surprised that the rider came off at such a small movement on the part of the horse, but obviously she was caught out on her balance. That can happen to anyone, even grand prix and olympic winners. It doesn’t make the horse a criminal, it doesn’t make the rider incompetent, it was just a bad moment that we all have from time to time.

If the rider thinks kicking the horse in the belly will fix it, she should not be riding. I don’t care who she is or how much she can afford in horses, shows and ribbons.

Yes, people in this thread called the horse “dirty”. The problem was never the horse. It is the rider’s behavior that is the problem.

[OverandOnward]

@pds

The show steward failed to do his/her duty.
This rider chose to humiliate herself in a very public venue. COTH reported on it just as a news organization should.

I commend the Chronicle for standing up for their principal of “if you see something, say something”. No matter how prominent the rider, or how much criticism and controversy would be coming.

That was a hard call for the Chronicle, I’m sure, but they walked the walk. Good on 'em.

[Bellathemustang]

@dags

Any horse is going to back away if you run at them (as would I). I admittedly haven’t run at a ton of horses, but I’ve made darn strong advances into their space and none has yet to be emotionally scarred by it. Regardless, you can’t include “running at” in the definition of abuse. It’s silly.

Ya guys need to give this “poor horse” some credit here as we have some real bubble-wrap culture going on. He’s a horse, he’s fine, his buddies do this to him with a lot more accuracy on a regular basis (if he’s allowed social turnout :lol:). He went home I’m sure to good bedding, food, and attention. He has videos all over the place in fine health and decidedly un-abused. You can infer what you want about what his program & the downfall of Hunterdom, but you (and I) have zero - let me repeat, ZERO - knowledge of his life. The biggest harm to him right now? He is The Horse That Dumped His Rider at The Hamptons. So when he shows up bargain priced because he can’t sell, and you are dying to prove you can stick that, have at it.

I think the issue is not if the horse was seriously hurt, but the fact that the rider lashed out at the horse like that. You cannot strike an animal in anger, that is abuse. It doesn’t matter if it wasn’t that hard, or didn’t seriously injure them, that is not the point. The point is people should not hit animals out of anger.

It is wrong to strike (hit, punch, or kick) animals out of anger. The severity of the blow is not the threshold test for abuse.

Is it really that hard for some people to refrain from hitting or kicking animals?

[OverandOnward]

A big difference between a rider attacking the horse after the rider had fallen off and gotten up, as opposed to disciplining during the ride with a crop, would be how the horse’s performance will be affected. How does kicking the horse in the belly help correct its jumping? It doesn’t really matter if she connected the kick or not, her intention is very clear - she was mad and frustrated and wanted to hurt the horse, in retaliation, not training. That is egregious, flagrant abuse.

If our ethical standards for horse welfare are so low that it is ok to attack a horse, in the arena during a class, not in training mode but purely out of temper, then why would it matter if horses are drugged and over-prepped and all the rest of it. It’s wrong any other time as well, but this happened when official eyes were on it.

This abuse of a horse happened in a setting where there are rules and officials to enforce them and a judge who reported it - but those officials failed miserably.

Honestly, this incident may seem trivial to some, but especially as it is supported by a judge’s report, to me it is a benchmark. The failure to act on it during the show just shows just how low enforcement standards truly are.

The officials who did not act gave every single USEF competitive rider a huge black eye and a slew of awkward questions to answer from the non-horsey public, and from many riders as well.

The Hampton Classic owes the horse world an apology for their abysmal failure to enforce horse welfare rules and their lack of response to this incident. I sincerely hope that the USEF investigation puts the accountability where it belongs, and that responsible officials and show management are sanctioned right along with the rider. The officials failed that horse, and every other USEF competitive rider as well.

As for the comparison with using a crop, the crop is a training aid, unlike getting off to deliver a belly kick. Or getting up after a fall to kick the horse’s belly. If a crop is used inappropriately then there are rules to prevent abuse with the crop during competition. Unfortunately those rules are also necessary.

[OverandOnward]

@dags

…
Ya guys need to give this “poor horse” some credit here as we have some real bubble-wrap culture going on. He’s a horse, he’s fine, his buddies do this to him with a lot more accuracy on a regular basis (if he’s allowed social turnout :lol:). He went home I’m sure to good bedding, food, and attention. He has videos all over the place in fine health and decidedly un-abused. You can infer what you want about what his program & the downfall of Hunterdom, but you (and I) have zero - let me repeat, ZERO - knowledge of his life. The biggest harm to him right now? He is The Horse That Dumped His Rider at The Hamptons. So when he shows up bargain priced because he can’t sell, and you are dying to prove you can stick that, have at it.

So it is ok with you that frustrated riders kick their horse in the belly at a horse show? In the arena while the class is running?

[hoopoe]

Well said O and O This whole process stinks, That a judge felt it worth reporting and then crickets… might it have been swept under the rug were it not for social medias ability?

Like I posted earlier, is this local (?) rider, seen as someone of money and influence being given a pa$$ by a show management which also rolls on its elite $tatus? This is exactly the type of PR that shows don’t need, not is the day ot organizations like PITA who would want to point and say elite people can “abuse” their horses with impunity. I see this as a case of bad sportsmanship rather than pure abuse as defined by the rules.( meanwhile out in the back ring little Pony Blue is entering into his second hour of LTD)

I will repeat… this is about the breakdown of the response of show authorities and certainly lends credence to the idea that stewards be randomly assigned to shows by a random generator program at the federation rather be selected and hired by the shows.

[dags]

@OverandOnward

So it is ok with you that frustrated riders kick their horse in the belly at a horse show? In the arena while the class is running?

Come on O&O, I’ve stated numerous times in this thread that I don’t think it’s okay. Sometimes I feel like if the stances we’ve already set we’re noted in a sticky on each post we’d get a lot further on this board.

[mvp]

@Pocket Pony

Well, yes, true. We should as adults be able to control our emotions . . . and especially if one is from a prominent family where they are likely used to being in the public eye somewhat, one should know that every possible move can be scrutinized and used against oneself.

But, for people used to getting what they want (not necessarily saying JJ is this person or not), this situation could have/would have been avoided if the horse just did his job. So I understand what BeeHoney is saying. Of course one should understand that falls and other such embarrassing things happen at shows. It happens and happens to the very best of riders at the top of their sport. And of course one (who is particularly so “well bred”) should understand how to comport oneself with grace at all times.

I am in no way excusing the behavior; but, having seen and ridden with kids with a lot of money who have had everything done for them from an early age (including being carried into the barn because they didn’t want to walk!), there may be an extra layer of frustration when things don’t go your way when in every other segment of your life you get what you want. You know, affluenza and all that.

:eek::ambivalence::disgust::uhoh::rolleyes:

Nah… being wealthy and therefore having a (woefully wrong?) sense that everyone will do as you say (merely because you are wealthy) only applies to people. I can’t imagine anyone thinking that a big enough bank account means a horse will submit to your will.

Being in need of “anger management” training? That can happen to people in any tax bracket.

There’s no need to create a rationale for thinking that the outcome that will follow from this is that trainers (employed by the clients who can afford them) will be pressed to prep horses further… just because a rider needs to learn to control her frustration… and somehow that client base is just so especially and incorrigibly ill-prepared to deal with animals who have a mind of their own that, really, we just have to let this go.

That’s a quite an argument there!

[mvp]

@findeight

If you read the story describing what happen next, she went out to the schooling ring, remounted, schooled two fences and returned for an uneventful second course so did recover from the tantrum as horse recovered from his silliness. The tantrum itself needs to be dealt with, need to let the the rest of the speculation and conjecture based on 30 seconds of video and her tax bracket go.

Article has added information USEF is reviewing the incident with an eye to issuing a violation. As it should have initially and should make a practice of instead of waiting for reaction from the peanut gallery. Somebody on the ground takes a swing at the horse with anything there shouldn’t be any question of unsportsmanlike conduct or need to investigate what is clearly immortalized in video. Good for the judge for calling it, shame on the steward for blowing it off.

Good for her! And good for the USEF, though belatedly. Just a little eye-roll toward our governing body. You are right: If they had been the Adult in the Room, the peanut gallery would not have made their investigation look like a CYA-style reaction. “A day late and a dollar short,” is an expression used in my family.

[danacat]

From a psychological standpoint, could be this:

• Rider wants to ‘look’ good and win class.

• Rider has self-appointed (or actual) reputation she needs to uphold.

• Rider is on horse that ‘should’ win class or at least place.

• Rider then fumbled approach to jump or missed cues from horse (or whatever - doesn’t matter)…and then fell off.

• Rider’s FIRST thought is to save face – so rider blames horse – reacts like it’s horse’s fault, not hers. The ‘over the top’ correction is necesssary (in her mind) because it will show peers and spectators that horse was dirty, didn’t listen to her and subsequently ejected her. Bad horse! Not rider’s fault!

• Face saved, consequences be damned.

[lilitiger2]

@danacat

From a psychological standpoint, could be this:

• .

Rider never learned any basic emotional regulation skills.

Admittedly, my hunter/jumpering days are long, long, LONG in the past, but not beyond memory (yet) This video has been all over FB and several other sites, and I’m delighted. It’s a fantastic learning tool for clients!

There are a bazillion threads in Off course on teaching riding and what to do when various things happen–difficult kids, difficult parents, difficult horses–whatever. THIS though, teaching the skill of managing emotions particularly frustration/anger is absolutely critical. Kids can learn this skill in many arenas but riding is an excellent one, because there are so many moments when things don’t go as we planned–horses don’t take the right lead in a show, swerve at a fence, shy at the same motherf*%&king mailbox they’ve passed a zillion times, etc etc.

Which is what happens in life. People cut us off in traffic. Bosses ask us to do irrelevant tasks. Employees screw up. Spouses let us down in various ways. One hopes, regardless of the momentary fantasy, we don’t kick our spouses/bosses/whomever in the stomach. We talk about wanting to punch someone, about running someone over with a tractor, about locking them away, but as we talk about it, what we’re doing (usually) is diverting/deescalating in some fashion. As an aside, road rage, it is this same phenomenon, an inability to control frustration.

So, whether or not the horse was seriously physically injured (not, by the video) isn’t the point. The point is this woman, regardless of her income status, clearly has no emotional regulation skills, even in a very public moment when many people can and do restrain themselves. That speaks volumes, as either she doesn’t have the skills, or does, but doesn’t care. Either way, not good. No emotional regulation is certainly not a plus in any discipline with animals, or really any life circumstance

Like I said, useful video.

[sdlbredfan]

I would love to hear what GHM thought and said about this. I am sure he would have ‘ripped her a new orifice’ if she had behaved this badly in one of his clinics.

[mvp]

@sdlbredfan

I would love to hear what GHM thought and said about this. I,am sure he would have ‘ripped her a new orifice’ if she had behaved this badly in one of his clinics.

And here’s the thing, Had HRH GHM done this first, we’d all be standing in line to praise him. But someone else holds an opinion that’s as blunt and strong as I think he’d give? That gets questioned. Or mitigating circumstances, alternative theories and the rest get trotted out. Can you imagine saying “Yabbut…” to George Morris after he weighed in on the subject? I don’t think he has the reputation for tolerating that.

Good horsemanship is the same for all of us, and its defense is inherently valid, no matter who is doing it.

[Pocket_Pony]

@mvp

And here’s the thing, Had HRH GHM done this first, we’d all be standing in line to praise him. But someone else holds an opinion that’s as blunt and strong as I think he’d give? That gets questioned. Or mitigating circumstances, alternative theories and the rest get trotted out. Can you imagine saying “Yabbut…” to George Morris after he weighed in on the subject? I don’t think he has the reputation for tolerating that.

Good horsemanship is the same for all of us, and its defense is inherently valid, no matter who is doing it.

Are you saying that there are people here who are not defending good horsemanship, or who are defending poor horsemanship? I don’t think I read where anyone said, “Good on her, that horse deserved a kick in the belly and she should have socked him in the nose while she was at it!”

Perhaps you are taking some tongue-in-cheek posts seriously?

Sometimes it is an interesting exercise to try to understand or imagine the wherefores of a situation, even if they are wrong or fanciful or go outside the lines. That doesn’t mean that one gives a pass to poor behavior or excuses it or tolerates it.

My niece sometimes exhibits bad behavior. I like to try to understand why even though I may not approve of her behavior or temper tantrum. Now, my niece is a child and this offender is an adult, but I still think that trying to understand someone’s thought process is interesting. I mean, posters on COTH can dissect anything, it is what we do! Perhaps this just comes from living with Mr. PoPo where we do this on a regular basis. “I wonder why someone does _____?” And then we come up with all the possible scenarios of why and then we try to come up with the most plausible reasons. We could be terribly off base, or we could be spot on. It is just A Thing we do that we both find interesting because human psychology is very interesting.

I don’t know that good horsemanship is the same for all of us, really I don’t. I have very strong ideas about what I think makes for good horsemanship, but I’m pretty sure that others would disagree with me on some things. In this specific case, I think we’d all agree that yes, this is an example of poor horsemanship and poor sportsmanship. I actually don’t see where anyone is saying otherwise.

[ww3467]

Jazz Johnson Merton responds: http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/jazz-johnson-merton-responds-to-usef-investigation

[MHM]

@ww3467

Jazz Johnson Merton responds: http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/jazz-johnson-merton-responds-to-usef-investigation

Thanks for posting the link.

[Gestalt]

@ww3467

Jazz Johnson Merton responds: http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/jazz-johnson-merton-responds-to-usef-investigation

I’m very glad to read that, as an apology it’s pretty darn good in my opinion. I’ve had freak out minutes myself and to face them is hard. Kudos.

[dags]

@Bellathemustang

I think the issue is not if the horse was seriously hurt, but the fact that the rider lashed out at the horse like that. You cannot strike an animal in anger, that is abuse. It doesn’t matter if it wasn’t that hard, or didn’t seriously injure them, that is not the point. The point is people should not hit animals out of anger.

It is wrong to strike (hit, punch, or kick) animals out of anger. The severity of the blow is not the threshold test for abuse.

No, the intent to cause harm is the threshold. Plenty of abuse is applied with no anger whatsoever. It can be applied methodically and with no emotion, often for financial gain. And the seriously psycho abusers among us are not angry, they seek thrills.

We cannot legislate emotions, it is just impossible to do. What if you are pissing mad, but still applying the correction (let’s say a crop) correctly? This is why the rule is “Cannot use whip more than 3 times” and not “Cannot use whip when angry”.

When we discuss these things we have to consider how USEF is going to write it into law. What actual words cover the loopholes without casting too broad a net. When I try to write this incident down, for the purposes of establishing a rule that will prevent it from ever happening again, I cannot find the words to make this abuse and not other things, like hitting a horse with a whip (which, to the un-initiated public, probably seems utterly barbaric). I think, legislatively, we are on much sounder ground if this is classified as some sort of sportsmanship penalty.

@Bellathemustang

Is it really that hard for some people to refrain from hitting or kicking animals?

Where are you getting this? There are literally thousands of people saying this is bad. There is not one single living soul that has chimed in and said she did a Good Thing.

[Simba27]

@Gestalt

I’m very glad to read that, as an apology it’s pretty darn good in my opinion. I’ve had freak out minutes myself and to face them is hard. Kudos.

I actually disagree. It seems like she is still blaming the horse. She says she “reacted to her horses behavior”. What behavior? He was being a horse. It didn’t even look like he did anything wrong. Does she expect him to be foot perfect every second of every ride?