Unsportsmanlike conduct at Hampton Classic

[Gestalt]

I didn’t take that as blaming her horse, I took it as an explanation as to why she lost her cool.

[Bellathemustang]

@dags

No, the intent to cause harm is the threshold. Plenty of abuse is applied with no anger whatsoever. It can be applied methodically and with no emotion, often for financial gain. And the seriously psycho abusers among us are not angry, they seek thrills.

We cannot legislate emotions, it is just impossible to do. What if you are pissing mad, but still applying the correction (let’s say a crop) correctly? This is why the rule is “Cannot use whip more than 3 times” and not “Cannot use whip when angry”.

When we discuss these things we have to consider how USEF is going to write it into law. What actual words cover the loopholes without casting too broad a net. When I try to write this incident down, for the purposes of establishing a rule that will prevent it from ever happening again, I cannot find the words to make this abuse and not other things, like hitting a horse with a whip (which, to the un-initiated public, probably seems utterly barbaric). I think, legislatively, we are on much sounder ground if this is classified as some sort of sportsmanship penalty.

Where are you getting this? There are literally thousands of people saying this is bad. There is not one single living soul that has chimed in and said she did a Good Thing.

I am not saying lashing out in anger is the only form of abuse, that was a reach.

When I say “anger” I more or less mean intent to cause harm, like “I’m pissed and am going to show you”. Sorry I didn’t use the lingo. It seems like you are defending this kick as not abuse? If her intent was not to cause harm, than what was the intent? Certainly not to train. It was punitive punishment, which I see as an intent to cause harm, no matter how mild.

We clearly don’t agree here. I see that kick as abuse. Since it served no purpose but to punish an animal through physical means (regardless of if significant pain was inflicted).

This is just my opinion, and I have exactly zero influence, so if you disagree, don’t worry, it doesn’t matter anyway.

[BeeHoney]

@mvp

Not true! The locus of the problem only becomes “horse wasn’t prepped enough” IF we allow that when the horse misbehaves an adult amateur necessarily will be a jackass in the ring. It’s not the fall or bad jump that made this event noteworthy. It’s not like anyone needs to make a horse quieter so that they can guarantee their client won’t publicly kick their horse in the gut because, hey, that behavior is “within normal limits” for clients and there’s nothing to be done about that element in the equation. C’mon.

Of course, it certainly isn’t necessary for junior or adult amateur clients to behave like jackasses when things don’t go well in competition. There are many junior and adult competitors of all backgrounds that are either genuinely good sports, or smart enough to act like a good sport until they are in a more private situation, or respectful enough of their trainer to follow instructions about how to act after a fall or embarrassing mistake.

However, realistically speaking, a trainer whose livelihood depends on thousands to tens-of-thousands of dollars rolling in each month from individual wealthy clients is not necessarily in a good position to give lectures on proper behavior to those same adult clients. Many of those clients are “big shots” in real life and are used to being treated with deference and have the means to promptly switch to a new trainer if made uncomfortable by a scolding or told how to act.

[alterhorse]

In my early days, when I was working on being “good” with horses. I had a tendency to be “not firm enough” when correcting a horse having a bad mannered moment. My friends used to joke that I’d only just “tap” a horse when a good smack was in order. It took me a long time to understand how to discipline a horse effectively without doing too little.

Later on I learned that training a horse requires certainty that one is choosing the correct training strategy for each individual horse. Many horses behave in undesirable ways because they are afraid, lack trust in people, or have been improperly handled by people. Punishing a horse that is reacting out of fear will only make a horse more afraid, and will accomplish nothing good.

One of my missions in my horse carrier was to “passively” teach people how to properly handle horses by providing a good example. I feel I’ve influence quite a few people in that way. Showing some that being a good “horse parent” requires firmly not permitting the horse to act in ways that could be dangerous to people, or the horse.

In my experience, there are far more horse people out there who overly pamper their horse to the point that the horses become bad mannered, than there are people who tend to treat everything the horse does that displeases them, as cause for stern punishment.

But I have met quite a few horse people who do seem to be “afraid” of horses, and as a result of their fear they will use creating fear in the horse “of them”, as their primary training tool. Such are the people who you will see whacking their horses when the horse simply does something like look in the direction of something the horse sees that the person doesn’t see. These horse people tend to be in their own worlds looking out at all things as “not respecting them”.

The “loving” horse person tends to be doing everything they can to look at the world through the eyes of their horse, and then use what they see to try to make their horse’s world a safer, kinder, more comfortable, and enjoyable place to live in.

In the endeavor to see the world through the eyes of horses, many will begin to see themselves through their horses eyes, and in this way horses can be some of the wisest teachers any human can have the privilege to learn from. Horses can teach people to become better human beings, not just for horses, but for other people too.

[CHT]

I see it as abuse simply because it had no training merit. The act did not correlate with training.

That doesn’t mean training can’t be abusive: obviously it can, but when pain is intentionally inflicted with NO possible training merit (positive punishment was used in a way that it could not possibly be related to the problem) , that easily be defined as abuse.

[BLBGP]

@BeeHoney

I disagree. I’ve been around a long time. The people who are truly cruel to horses are not throwing temper tantrums in the show ring, their abuse happens quietly back in the barns or at home. Targeting an adult amateur who had a temper tantrum at a very unfortunate moment serves as a lesson to be more careful in public situations, but that’s it.

Oh, no, wait, It also teaches trainers that they better not under prep and end up with a horse that is too fresh in the show ring because it’s an unforgivable spectacle if a horse should misbehave in the show ring and have a rider fall off (or god forbid require the use of the crop). I’ve been around long enough to know that the discussion back at the barn after the round in question most likely centered on the problem of the horse not having been “prepped” well enough.

Frankly, fear of having horses misbehave in the show ring and having a fall or a “spectacle” in the public eye (videoed or not) is part of what has made our h/j culture so dependent on “prep.” For example, by current standards it’s a lot more acceptable to LTD, use multiple tubes of PP, use injections of “electrolytes,” and use a long list of “legal” drugs to make sure a horse is dead quiet in the ring VS. having a horse go out into the show ring and do something that requires a spanking. Unfortunately, a lot of methods of preparing a horse for the hunter ring are probably more unkind than the use of a crop (or a flailing kick to the belly), but because the prep takes place quietly behind the scenes it is tolerated.

This situation and the backlash is part of a culture that makes it harder to take a green or difficult horse out in public, because if that horse should misbehave and require a correction, you are going to have to choose between making a proper correction and risking getting internet shamed or letting the horse get away with bad behavior. I have zero faith that the general public–or even many inexperienced horse people–can accurately discern in most instances whether a situation is a temper tantrum, abuse, or a proper correction. There are people out there that even believe that bits and nailed on horse shoes are cruel, so I have no doubt that a video of a rider delivering a proper correction to a difficult horse would find plenty of harsh internet critics.

I can see how the Chronicle has gained publicity for itself by featuring this video and getting links from larger news sources, but it was a low move and clearly not motivated by concern for horse welfare.

It’s very ironic to me all the people who come out of the woodwork to point fingers at the rider in this video, and yet at the end of the day, cruel and unethical trainers, some of whom have been caught red handed and/or featured in lawsuits, always seem to have plenty of clients.

If trainers are watching this and thinking “wow, I better prep my horses better so my amateur riders don’t fall off and then chase after them and try to kick them in the bellies” then we have way bigger issues than I ever thought. The issue isn’t that the horse was fresh or that she fell off. It was the reaction, which does nothing to correct the horse.

The reason this made the media rounds is the crazy inappropriateness of the rider’s reaction. And the stewards not reporting it. Unless this is how you think a horse should be corrected after falling off, you are still safe to take your greenie out in public.

[snaffle635]

Amazes me how people on this board can assess someone’s character after a few seconds of video. I’m also stunned that people draw a connection between this rider’s economic situation and her behavior. There’s so little we know about this situation or this person.

What I saw on video was an inappropriate temper tantrum and based only on the video I’m a bit surprised there weren’t additional repercussions for the rider. But I wasn’t there. I didn’t partake in the stewards’ conversation after the incident - and pretty sure none of you did either.

Her apology seemed genuine and sincere.

All yall judgy-pants can get back on your high-horses and carry on now. And be thankful ‘the internet’ didn’t catch a few seconds of you at your worst.

[OverandOnward]

IMO the letter was nicely done. It’s the best she can offer, since there are no do-overs for such public bad moments.

[Thylacine]

@Gestalt

I didn’t take that as blaming her horse, I took it as an explanation as to why she lost her cool.

explanation?

when one makes a heartfelt Apology one does not try to ‘explain themselves/actions away’
one simply Apologises for being a total dick.
[edit] profusely, and on bended knee begging forgiveness.
NO “explanation”, just “I stuffed up!” “I am so, so sorry and I hope MY HORSE will one day forgive me for acting like a Total Dick” (edited for clarity)

that is how heartfelt, then accepted, Apologies work.
someone needs to explain that to the Public Relations firm employed by the family biz - am guessing the regular PR people handed this over to a junior exec who hasn’t written many Apologies, thinking in the scheme of things this wasn’t a big deal…

ha. have I got news for them. lol

[mvp]

@Pocket Pony

Are you saying that there are people here who are not defending good horsemanship, or who are defending poor horsemanship? I don’t think I read where anyone said, “Good on her, that horse deserved a kick in the belly and she should have socked him in the nose while she was at it!”

Perhaps you are taking some tongue-in-cheek posts seriously?

Sometimes it is an interesting exercise to try to understand or imagine the wherefores of a situation, even if they are wrong or fanciful or go outside the lines. That doesn’t mean that one gives a pass to poor behavior or excuses it or tolerates it.

My niece sometimes exhibits bad behavior. I like to try to understand why even though I may not approve of her behavior or temper tantrum. Now, my niece is a child and this offender is an adult, but I still think that trying to understand someone’s thought process is interesting. I mean, posters on COTH can dissect anything, it is what we do! Perhaps this just comes from living with Mr. PoPo where we do this on a regular basis. “I wonder why someone does _____?” And then we come up with all the possible scenarios of why and then we try to come up with the most plausible reasons. We could be terribly off base, or we could be spot on. It is just A Thing we do that we both find interesting because human psychology is very interesting.

I don’t know that good horsemanship is the same for all of us, really I don’t. I have very strong ideas about what I think makes for good horsemanship, but I’m pretty sure that others would disagree with me on some things. In this specific case, I think we’d all agree that yes, this is an example of poor horsemanship and poor sportsmanship. I actually don’t see where anyone is saying otherwise.

Not sure I can defend myself adequately if I wasn’t clear. What I meant was this would not have gone on for 13 pages with folks offering explanatory theories about why a grown up heiress would do what she did… and someone whom everyone respected weighed in.

[Thylacine]

and…

any grown horsewoman I have ever met (myself included) who didn’t apologise within minutes/hours of acting like a total dick - as we all have been at some point in our lives - would not be allowed within kicking distance of ANY animal in my care.

the “steward” also needs retraining - maybe ms johnson merton would like to offer her services? ('cept this time aim for bum instead of tum)

[mvp]

@ww3467

Jazz Johnson Merton responds: http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/jazz-johnson-merton-responds-to-usef-investigation

Fair enough. I just can’t see myself doing that at 36 in the show ring at the Hampton Classic.

[Thylacine]

@mvp

Not sure I can defend myself adequately if I wasn’t clear. What I meant was this would not have gone on for 13 pages with folks offering explanatory theories about why a grown up heiress would do what she did… and someone whom everyone respected weighed in.

coulda sworn you’ve been around the internet longer than 20minutes?
must have gotten your moniker confused with anotherone…

wink

[Renn_aissance]

This afternoon, at a local show, I watched a pony pull just about the exact same move this horse did. I know that pony. I’ve ridden that pony- the pony would go bronc off bolting and it had hurt several kids, and I was put on it for a CTJ that was the ugliest discipline ride I’ve ever given a horse because it was a danger to anyone on its back or on the ground when it decided it was done and leaving the ring. Today a very good rider was on that pony, and the twit landed, rooted, dropped its shoulder, dropped the kid, and tried to turn around and kick the rider. The judge’s opinion was that the pony was trying to kill the kid.

The child- CHILD- a young teenager- got to her feet, brushed herself off, went to try to capture the rotten pony, got back on, and gave that little wench a hell of a ride.

I thought to myself today, if a teenager can do that after having been maliciously put in the dirt by a nasty pony who’s done it a hundred times before, there is no good reason that an adult amateur can’t get to her feet and run up her stirrups like a gosh darn grown up.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

The statement was well done, I thought - it must have taken a week to release it because it was being vetted by lawyers and PR folks.

[OverandOnward]

@dags

Come on O&O, I’ve stated numerous times in this thread that I don’t think it’s okay. Sometimes I feel like if the stances we’ve already set we’re noted in a sticky on each post we’d get a lot further on this board.

Honestly that’s a good example of the rider saying “that’s not how I usually behave”. No one knows that on social media. No one is scorekeeping your posts, or anyone else’s posts. What you present on social media stands without history or context, just as does that video as it is seen by the general public. Or that moment in the ring, as seen by spectators who don’t know the rider. What you say in any one post is all that a reply is addressing. Being clear about what you want to say, how you want it to be understood, is about just the one post. The same is true for public behavior at a horse show, or anywhere else, as many a professional athlete has learned the hard way. That’s reality as it is today.

[MHM]

@Groom&Taxi

The statement was well done, I thought - it must have taken a week to release it because it was being vetted by lawyers and PR folks.

How do you figure a week? Didn’t that video just get wide exposure within the last few days? The event itself was several weeks ago. Maybe the apology letter went to USEF earlier, or maybe the whole thing just snowballed in the last 72 hours. Hard to say.

The lawyers/PR people/authors did a good job. Let’s hope they never have a reason to do that again.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@MHM

How do you figure a week? Didn’t that video just get wide exposure within the last few days? The event itself was several weeks ago. Maybe the apology letter went to USEF earlier, or maybe the whole thing just snowballed in the last 72 hours. Hard to say.

The lawyers/PR people/authors did a good job. Let’s hope they never have a reason to do that again.

The COTH blurb came out last Tuesday when this thread started so I just figured the show had been last week-end - should have looked that up.

[Soaponarope]

It’s good that she apologized. Now usef needs to do its job and suspend her for a time. Hope the whole mess doesn’t deter more people from the sport.

[HipNo34]

Out of my burrow, for a far-and-few between post, to thoroughly agree… if this were handled right the first time around, as someone said way upstream, we’d be having a different conversation with a way smaller mob. I’m sure I’m rehashing the best bits of other people’s comments but all this weighs on me:

The super fresh horse/sour horse/dirty horse/dirty trick/repetitive behavior thing doesn’t hold water. If that were the case, everyone involved knew what ride they were signing up for before they sent him into the ring. In the A/Os no less. At the Hampton Classic. All concerned share a piece of the blame cake.

And I’m giving no passes for The Realities of the Modern Show Hunter Business Especially As It Pertains To The Junior and Amateur Rider. Ammy In Question is 36, a rider since childhood AND allegedly an MFH.

Not some naif with a brand new new ride and a once-in-a-while crack at the big shows. There’s no having it both ways here. Just like there’s no both ways in being a book-publishing socialite and escaping public scrutiny when you publicly f___ up.

But even if she were some naif who discovered in the middle of a show ring that she had been sold a bill of goods or the horse waited til that particular class to turn Mr. Hyde. Even if she were me, you, or a 12-year old pony kid. Even if it were just a once-in-a-lifetime mistake, never to happen again. Even if “she didn’t actually make contact.” Even if it wasn’t technically abuse. Even if she was scared. Rider f’ed up. Broke cardinal rules of horsemanship and sportsmanship. There are consequences.

Even when you’re sorry.

Lapse of judgement and temperament? Sure. Has it happened to all of us? Sure. But we have all been told, since our very first up-down lessons, that these are fundamental rules. Rules come with consequences and those consequences should be expected and accepted with the grace that was lacking the first time around.

I would actually respect that.

Lastly, in regards to her letter and professionally speaking, I’ve seen better.