First let me qualify this by saying I ride dressage, am not being critical of anyone’s position. This question is purely for my own edification and curiosity.
I have noticed over the past year (-ish) that some show jumpers (the riders), when going over fences appear to flex tightly at the knee with their feet way back by the horse’s flank, as opposed to the more ‘traditional’ position touted by G. Morris.
Is there a theory behind this?
thank you
Honestly, there really isn’t a theory behind it. I look at some GP riders (ahem, Aaron Vale) and wonder how in the world they stay on their horse. However, they are jumping quite large fences, then the argument goes back to if Beezie Madden can jump huge fences and look like it’s effortless and natural, than way can’t every one else? Correct equation and being able to ride the height of the fence is true talent. I honestly think everyone else is over exaggerating quite a bit.
Been that way for ever, go back to the David Broome era. Whatever works with the horse in question.
Some people are exceptions to the equitation rule.
If you can do this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtv2sK6jbp4&feature=share ,
I would certainly not presume to criticize your equitation.
He rides in an odd manner with his lower leg, however it is quite clear that he has impeccable balance and instinct.
Legs out behind him? I cant stop myself from posting this.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=kp&v=Ol7x46IpMTQ
I find it amusing that I opened this thread and the banner ad on my screen has a photo where the rider’s lower leg is all but parallel to the horse’s topline. Did you have to pay extra for illustrations?
[QUOTE=skydy;7630768]
Some people are exceptions to the equitation rule.
If you can do this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtv2sK6jbp4&feature=share ,
I would certainly not presume to criticize your equitation.
He rides in an odd manner with his lower leg, however it is quite clear that he has impeccable balance and instinct.[/QUOTE]
haha! Richard Spooner gets a bye for life after that move!
It’s a snapshot in time. With the advent of photographers and the internet, we get to see every lovely and not-so-lovely shot. Some don’t have the greatest eq, some do. Perhaps it is not that in the last year we are seeing more of sucky eq, we are just seeing MORE in general, classic and not-so-much. I hope this doesn’t turn in to (yet another) “riders of today have crappy eq and it was not so back-in-the-day”.
Rodney.Jenkins.
We are seeing more and more coverage of events every year. Used to be you were lucky to see still shot and only of top tier events. Now there are thousands all over the place revealing many riders at all levels, that’s what has really changed.
Some real tall riders have to worry a bit about their feet when a horse really stretches out and lowers their belly over a spread (sounds weird but it’s true). Others deal with physical limitations due to injury or the way they are built. Still others simply develop a style that works for them and the type horse they prefer.
Look at the horse and how it performs, not the rider.
BTW, there are photos out there from decades ago showing Equitation gurus in less then textbook positions over big fences, seem to recall one of them, Victor maybe, getting left bad over water. it is just a moment in time.
That said, there is alot of bad, unsafe and sloppy riding at lower levels there is no excuse for. But anybody on the elite levels has earned the right to ride as suits them and their horses and you bet it’s safe and the horse likes it or they would not be at elite levels.
This thread is a good excuse to post links to great pics and videos. Like this one I don’t think I’ve ever seen before of Harry de Leyer and Snowman:
http://sidelinesnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/history4.jpg
(photo source)
http://sidelinesnews.com/weekly-featured/harry-de-leyer-and-snowman-a-cinderella-story-becomes-a-film.html
[QUOTE=Sansena;7630897]
Rodney.Jenkins.[/QUOTE]
Yes! That’s my thought.
[QUOTE=Windsor1;7630918]
This thread is a good excuse to post links to great pics and videos. Like this one I don’t think I’ve ever seen before of Harry de Leyer and Snowman:
http://sidelinesnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/history4.jpg
(photo source)
http://sidelinesnews.com/weekly-featured/harry-de-leyer-and-snowman-a-cinderella-story-becomes-a-film.html[/QUOTE]
Windsor,
it’s funny, before I even got to your post, I was thinking of Snowman and Harry.
Went to IMDB and found this:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2898306/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_1
And the CPI inflation calculator says -
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=80&year1=1956&year2=2014
that in today’s dollars, Snowman would be priced at $697.27.
But the question I have about your picture is that he seems to have run his stirrup leathers through some sort of ring by the girth. What is that? Is that just something riders do for the real high jumps?
[QUOTE=Sparrowette;7631050]
But the question I have about your picture is that he seems to have run his stirrup leathers through some sort of ring by the girth. What is that? Is that just something riders do for the real high jumps?[/QUOTE]
Not a clue!
Reading this thread, de Leyer came to mind because of all the old photos in books that I remembered seeing of him and his unconventional style.
Interestingly, I have another book, pretty sure it’s Margaret Cabell Self’s The Hunter in Pictures, of de Leyer exhibiting what I think would qualify as perfect or near-perfect form. It’s a from a 3/4 angle and he’s not riding Snowman. I don’t think the photo caption identifies the horse. The book’s in storage, unfortunately. I’d love to share that photo.
I know it’s probably impossible to maintain good equitation over a Puissance wall, but this seems a little much.
If you guys need me, I’ll be over here banging my head against my desk.
Naturally going over a jump, if you lean forward your legs will want to slide back. Because over big jumper jumps the horses have to tilt back so much the riders have to stand up so their feet have to aim downwards. If that makes sense. I guess then they just don’t put their legs back underneath until landing.
Like this:
http://i57.tinypic.com/2q3ykcy.jpg
I have a poster of Phillip Dutton where his heels are toughing the panels of his saddle.
By the way, while I was looking for pictures to demonstrate I found this:
http://i58.tinypic.com/35mffpf.jpg
Has anyone here read the book “Reflections on Riding and Jumping” by William Steinkraus? If you haven’t, you should. The best part is a collection of pictures of top competitors of the day. Some show textbook equitation (like the pictures of himself, haha), but many don’t. In the captions, he explains how those riders were effective in spite of something that might be seen as a “flaw” in a snapshot of time. Things like the types of horse they were on or preferred, their build, the spot they got to or particular jump they were jumping …all of these affect what we see. And I believe my edition is 1967 or thereabouts, so it has nothing to do with “riding today”.
As for that leg back thing in particular, I have my theories. The first is that it’s a man thing. Seriously, I can’t think of a highly successful woman with a style like that. It’s because we are built and proportioned differently, and, most importantly, have an entirely different centre of gravity. Somehow (just don’t ask me to explain how), I think it must be providing them with a balance and freedom in motion. Because don’t forget, most of these pictures we see with legs straight back are taken at the apex of the jump…they take their time getting up there and back down in time for landing. Something about the dynamic motion of this just works for those riders (those tall, gangly limbed men…)
As for Richard Spooner specifically, as naturally he always comes up in these discussions, it definitely works for him for some reason, and so that’s what he does. Because when he rides younger horses and smaller fences, that leg is textbook, down and on. I would find pictures if it weren’t way past my bedtime…but then I watched that “no reins” clip again and realized that is a fine example right there…you get a front and side view of how there is no leg swing as he rides out of that combination.
Pretty is as pretty does over huge jumps. As long as a rider stays over the center of balance and doesn’t interfere with the best effort from his horse and in fact encourages it I don’t care if they click their heels together behind them. My trainer has ridden some very tricky horses GP that frankly others couldn’t have ridden at that level. He definitely falls into the “non-traditional” style category but has impeccable balance.
I love to watch McLain ride with amazing equitation on every mount he rides but not everyone has those mounts and sometimes you have to improvise.
[QUOTE=Pally;7632333]
Has anyone here read the book “Reflections on Riding and Jumping” by William Steinkraus? . . .[/QUOTE]
Hahaha, I just wrote about how much I love this book. I can only read about a page and a half at a time because it gets me so excited.
