UPDATE: Diagnosis Re: Armchair Vets - Chime in! Horse resists upward canter transition

[AAHunterGal]

Hey everyone! At one point in the past, the COTH members were good at tracking down a rather mysterious performance issue with my horse, so I thought it might be a good idea to open it back up again. I’m just going to list as much as I can think of about what’s happening, so excuse the format of the post!

My 5yo mare has always been ornery about picking up the canter since February of this year (I bought her in December of 2021 and she came to me with 60 days US). She does this with me and with professionals. If you get after her, she’ll pick it up. Some days are better than others, and it seems to overall be easier for her to get it from the walk than from the trot (which makes little sense but that’s what I’ve found).

She also has a tendency to lean very hard into your right leg when getting back into work from a walk break or asking for the canter. Same thing, if you get after her she’s better about it - does it with both me and with professionals. Will also drift right in a line if you forget to keep her straight. Has started to really lock her left jaw and almost spin right to get out of work, but stops when you insist.

Saw the dentist in April and all looked good/fine.

She has trouble picking up BOTH leads, though left lead is SLIGHTLY more difficult than right. Once you get going, she gets better about picking up her leads - if we’re doing a jump school she will usually easily get back into the canter from a walk break.

She lands equally well on either lead / doesn’t favor landing or taking off from one lead or the other. She doesn’t swap before the jump or crossfire on the landing. We’re jumping 2’ - 2’6". She’s still learning her changes and does each direction equally well over a pole.

Her trot work is coming along WONDERFULLY and she can collect/extend, has started shoulder-in/haunches-in, can counterbend, and does really nice walk/trot transitions.

She is not girthy or worried about getting tacked up. She doesn’t mind being brushed and she regularly gets PEMF with no abnormally sore spots. She’s been professionally fitted in a CWD saddle and it fits her well. She doesn’t have trouble with her feet.

She’s been with several professionals each with a different riding style and neither has produced a measurably more successful result. One was very forceful, one was a bit more give/take. I myself am an experienced ammy/former pro with a good support network of help and knowledgable folks.

She’s better if you wear bigger spurs but doesn’t need the spurs to keep going / she has a nice motor for the most part - she just needs them for this one thing consistently.

Upon purchase she passed a PPE done by Peterson & Smith and I had Xrays done of everything BUT her neck. All looked good.

Upon it first presenting in February, I had the vet out and he did a lameness exam. Nothing was found. We put her on Regumate and did a month of Gastrogard. Nothing changed. I put her on a PSSM diet (thank you COTH folks for pointing that out to me!) and things improved a LOT after that. I figured we were out of the woods. That was middle of May.

But now by the end of October, I can’t say that things have gotten any measurably better since May of this year with this exact issue. She feels like she stalls out and applies her mental brakes when asked to canter instead of jumping up into the next gear. Some days are better than others, but it’s been a steady up/down progress wise.

I have the vet out again next week for another lameness eval and to get X-rays of her neck. I’m also getting her scoped (I didn’t get her scoped in May since the PSSM diet changed so much).

Anything else / any other stone to unturn? Anything else I should ask the vet next week when they’re out beyond the neck and the lameness eval?

[4horses]

If it is not lameness, then I would suspect pssm. I would time your workouts and see if there’s a difference in canter transitions if you canter after a 5 minute warmup vs if you canter towards the end of the lesson.

[LovieBird]

Chiro?

Also, not all saddle fitters are created equal.

[SpicyPRE]

my first reaction was that she was growing and felt out of balance causing her to brace. I now wonder if this has become a behavioral pattern. Have you had any body work/chiro done? Tried any different saddles?

BTW - what is her breed?

[AAHunterGal]

@4horses

If it is not lameness, then I would suspect pssm.

Yep, we’ve already put all of the PSSM protocols in place, that’s what we figured out back in April/May. It helped immensely but it didn’t go away entirely

[joiedevie99]

Possibility 1: It’s still the PSSM. The protocols aren’t a cure.
Possibility 2: Have you tried estrone injections for the stifles?

[AAHunterGal]

I wish she was growing, lol. She’s still a solid 15.1h. She’s an Oldenburg.

She gets regular body work and nothing out of the ordinary is found. This is the third saddle I’ve ridden her in (first was a Tad Coffin, second was a Voltaire Blue Wing). She doesn’t have an abnormal back so is fairly easy to fit. The CWD Mademoiselle fits her fantastically. No pad slippage or uneven sweat spots.

[AAHunterGal]

@joiedevie99

Possibility 1: It’s still the PSSM. The protocols aren’t a cure.
Possibility 2: Have you tried estrone injections for the stifles?

That’s what I’m thinking for #1. Which would be unfortunate but at least reasonable.
For #2 - tell me more… we haven’t injected anything yet as the lameness exams/ X-rays didn’t show anything was sore.

[joiedevie99]

@AAHunterGal

For #2 - tell me more… we haven’t injected anything yet as the lameness exams/ X-rays didn’t show anything was sore.

Estrone is an IM injection that is helpful to horses that have stifles issues (particularly upward fixation of the patella, but some vets use it for others too). It seems to help the joint function more normally, without pain, while you engage in strengthening work/rehab. I only mention it because I tend to think stifle or SI when someone says a horse is doing really well in trot, but not canter/transitions.

[AAHunterGal]

@Amberley

I would suspect saddle fit, especially with a CWD. They lit to fit them too close to the wither, imho. Can you canter around in a two point and jump with a finger or two under the pommel without it being pinched? Have you tried another saddle, ideally a dressage saddle with long tree points? How is she on the lunge? In side reins?

Nope not saddle fit. I’ve only had the CWD since August and it’s the best saddle fit for her from all the ones I’ve had. Before this saddle I rode her in a Tad Coffin and a Voltaire Blue Wing,

She also does it with other saddles (One pro rode her in a Voltaire Palm Beach and the other in an Antares).

Again, she does not have a strange back, this saddle wasn’t fitted custom to her, I bought it used, and there is plenty of clearance above the wither. The saddle fits her quite well.

She has the same issue into the canter on the lunge line. It’s a bit harder there because I have less influence from the ground.

[AAHunterGal]

@joiedevie99

Estrone is an IM injection that is helpful to horses that have stifles issues (particularly upward fixation of the patella, but some vets use it for others too). It seems to help the joint function more normally, without pain, while you engage in strengthening work/rehab. I only mention it because I tend to think stifle or SI when someone says a horse is doing really well in trot, but not canter/transitions.

Interesting! She has a huge stride and reaches WAY underneath herself at the canter, so this is definitely something to look into, thank you!

[4horses]

If this is pssm, if will be a lifelong issue. Unfortunately it can progress. My mare with pssm type 2 has started tying up the last couple years and has become increasingly exercise intolerant, despite efforts to tweak her diet and exercise more. As a younger horse, she did not tie up. She’s 18 this year.

[Tha_Ridge]

Highly recommend the estrone as well. It’s inexpensive, low-risk, and makes a big difference in a lot of growing young horses. I’d try that before looking for zebras.

[IPEsq]

Sounds possibly counterintuitive but I’ve had horses with SI and low back problems have an easier time with walk-canter than trot-canter when the SI is sore. Can sometimes look like stifles because they might slip out behind due to weakness, pain, and just way of going too out behind. Even if they can reach under well, you have to look at full range of motion. Is the back part too far back? Does she struggle sometimes to get the hind legs back under in that she might slip out, swap, buck, or frequently break gait? The difference between it and upward fixation is the stifle won’t actually lock. You get the step in a hole thing without locking. And it will only happen in canter, whereas sticky stifles can affect them in trot as well.

[Warmblood1]

If she is a 5 year old WB, she is still growing and developing. Her height may not change substantially but these horses take longer to mature.

In most ways, she sounds like a young, developing 5 year old. These problems aren’t unique to young horses. It sounds as though she is capable of the work but has to be encouraged to work harder.

I echo doing chiro and massage work.

You can usually feel stifle issues in canter work. The canter is more jarring so not sure that’s the issue.

What are you doing specifically in your training to improve the canter? How often and long is she being worked? Are you incorporating hills and work outside of the arena?

[AAHunterGal]

@Tha_Ridge

Highly recommend the estrone as well. It’s inexpensive, low-risk, and makes a big difference in a lot of growing young horses. I’d try that before looking for zebras.

I’ve read that estrone isn’t recommended for mares though. Has that been your experience as well?

[Heinz_57]

Is she still on Vit E? You might consider having her levels checked or increasing it a bit if you think it might be PSSM2 related.

I have a horse I suspect of PSSM2 with similar presentation re: canter issues, he tends to do better with higher levels of E + additional protein in his diet. But every horse is a bit different.

[AAHunterGal]

Thanks everyone!! After doing more research based on some comments here, I’m pretty certain I have a stifle issue going on, most likely some form of IUPF. I think because the PSSM diet helped so much back in May, and because she passed her PPE with clear stifle X-rays, I never considered it before, but it really does seem to track. Either that or SI.

I’ll give everyone an update after the vet comes out!

[AAHunterGal]

After a full work up which included some flexions and being ridden, vet zeroed in on her SI joint. He said stifles felt good on manipulation and had no inflammation. SI however was very ouchy and was impinging her way of going behind.

He believes recent increase in her resistance to canter was her way of letting us know she had reached her threshold for pain/being uncomfortable. He said that these things can happen either acutely or creep up over time.

This makes me wonder if she didn’t have some sort of acute injury in turnout or something back in February that we missed entirely and she’s just been getting by since then based on how good/bad she feels each day. It would definitely explain the up/down nature of things. Would also explain the acute onset of the original issue.

Today we did a chiropractic adjustment and injected her SI joint and will be using the next 4-6 weeks to slowly get her stronger and suppler. She has the rest of the week off, then 2 weeks of walk/trot long/low easy, then walk/trot with more of a frame/push from behind and trot poles, etc.
He said after the first two weeks of walk/trot I could ask for the canter just to see how she might be feeling, but not to work it at all.

After 6 weeks of strengthening then we can see how she does with more canter work.
I’m SO GLAD to have at least something to move forward with to see if we can get her into a place where canter is just as easy for her as everything else is!!

[Lunabear1988]

I’m so glad you have a plan and some answers! I hope it helps and that she feels better!!