Update in Post 85- Possible horse purchase: WWYD/advice?

The part that’s a red flag about this is it was enough of a ‘big deal’ to the previous owner to mention it to the sales barn, and then they thought it was a big enough deal to tell you.

I have two saintly horses in my barn that I’ve put 100% of the training on. One came to me extremely green, the other unbroken. Both are saintly now. They teach young children and scared beginners how to ride. A four year old declared one of them ‘the best horse ever’ yesterday after riding him around the arena.

But, both have dropped my butt like a hot rock. One was a horrible bucker when he was young. Like rodeo bronc level. His lineage is known for being this way when they are young. He hasn’t even attempted a cow hop in 10+ years now though. If I was to sell him (not that I ever would) I wouldn’t say he was a bucker, because that’s not accurate. Baby horses do weird things. Then they grow out of it.

You don’t disclose every single thing that the horse you are selling has ever done in their whole life, because it’s not an accurate picture of the horse at that time. So the fact that they told you about the rear? That’s concerning.

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A one-time rear would not necessarily chase me away. The martingale could possibly be a case of the former owner using it as a crutch or whatever - I’ve seen lots of horses under more restraint than they needed. BUT I think a skilled seller would have tried to work the horse without the martingale to establish whether or not it was necessary. The martingale, combined with the one-time rear would have me wanting to negotiate a pre-purchase lease to try the horse out for awhile. Without the option of a pre-purchase lease, I would consider it carefully. I don’t have much experience with horses that required martingales but any time I have used tools like that they have been for temporary reinforcement while I learn how to better support my mount. But I also ride almost exclusively quiet, laid back quarter horses. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who rides a horse that regularly needs a martingale. Does it negatively affect your ride? Is the horse a lot of work to keep organized under saddle?

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Any horse can rear . Any horse can buck or run off given the right circumstances. I think we are just lucky that most don’t.

I am not saying this is the horse for @MissusS or that this horse is unsafe because it reared once under saddle. What I would do is have my trainer ride it again and take off the martingale and really ask it to work and maybe even get the horse a little out of it’s comfort zone to see how it responds.

Of course I wouldn’t want the trainer to put him/ herself at risk but a good professional should be able to feel if the horse is getting a bit " light in the front end" so to speak, before a full blown rear is happening and get off.

Horse sounds nice so I would investigate a bit deeper if possible before passing .

Decades ago, in continental Europe, in practically every riding center I was in, running martingales were standard equipment, as “don’t leave the barn without it”.
Why?
We were told, running martingales are like a seat belt, just sit there until and when a horse has a bad moment, or your hands are a bit less than polite for whatever reason and a horse swings his head around violently.
Then a well adjusted martingale can save the day, give you that bit of more control of a horse’s head, why one is required for every training ride.
A martingale may not come handy but once every several years, but like a seat belt in a wreck, you may be glad to have it there.

Adding to that, we were sent back to get one if we forget, also stoppers on the reins were required, also went back if you didn’t have those, they were absolutely necessary with running martingales.

One time I was training this new OTTB, just starting him in the indoor and as I started walking in realized when cleaning the bridle one rein stopper had fallen out and was missing.
I knew better, should have excused myself and walked all the way back to the barn and put another stopper in the rein.
I didn’t, thought “just this time, I will be sure to have one next ride”.

As luck happened, when starting to canter, young, happy, fresh horse shook his head a bit, the martingale ring slid forward and, without a stopper, hit and hung on the bit buckle, horse felt his head tied down and flipped instantly over on me.
I was used to colts and instinctively had feet out of stirrups and him falling pushed me over and I landed by him as he flopped over on the ground, inches in front of me.

I think that accident took a few years off everyone in the arena that saw it, the instructor was white, it must have looked horrible, about to be squashed like a bug, horse didn’t even quite reared, just flipped sideways and down violently.
Some times we are stupid and get lucky, I was that day.

Still have used a running martingale plenty, but you bet there are stoppers on those reins, always, without fail and so are on anyone I ever see using one that “forgot” one “just this time”.
If you don’t, take the martingale off, they become a worse liability than without.

Hope that answer some of your questions on martingales.

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That is really interesting! As you are explaining it, I can see how they would be helpful as a “seat belt”. Thanks for sharing that!

Also, I can relate to your horse flipping story. That sort of event sticks with you for life!

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There are enough lovely horses out there that don’t rear under saddle or consider that an option. Its so dangerous. So glad to see the op passed.

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Horse sales are truly amazing. Some people will sell a totally lame, rank pony and label it the best kids horse in the world.

It’s not like selling a car, for example. Some people will buy a horse just because they feel sorry for it. Imagine someone buying a car because they pitied it. Some sellers run with that concept and really take advantage of people’s emotions.

A lot of horse dealers also only know what they are told. For example, in your situation, it sounds like the horse was ridden maybe 5 times by the agent selling it. There is only so much information you can gather in 5 rides. If the horse didn’t do anything absurd in those 5 rides, they are likely to believe the owner when they say the horse is safe and sound. But that certainly doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s also a numbers game. Some consignment barns sell an extraordinary amount of horses. So selling a few bad apples typically doesn’t ruin their rep, plus there is that entire emotional component where people will still buy a horse even if alarms and red flags are being raised. Buyers act differently with horse sales. Sellers know it. It’s also easy to look at a car and say for sure, you’re getting this. Horses change to their environment, require a ton of money and diagnostics to see “internally,” and may never be what they appear to be. Sellers also take advantage of that level of uncertainty.

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Raise your hand if you’ve ever been given the “if it doesn’t sell this week I’ll have to send it to auction [aka kill pen] story….

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Wow, OP, you could be me. As someone who has BTDT, I would say, first, the seller’s agent probably disclosed only the tip of the iceberg. There are now a couple degrees separation between you and the seller, and you have to ask yourself why. Everyone gets plausible deniability in this transaction. The seller’s agent doesn’t know the details, and the seller doesn’t have to share them.

I wouldn’t necessarily pass on a horse because it rears, and I wouldn’t consider a “rearer” to be unfixable. But it sounds like you’ve dealt with enough disappointment already with the TB and the pasture accident that your capacity for disappointment must be pretty close to used up. And if you get a horse like this, you have to be prepared for much, much more disappointment before things improve.

First, there’s the possibility your relationship with your trainer may change for the worse (it’s easy to love your trainer when you have a saintly horse that doesn’t need training). There’s the possibility that other trainers will decline to work with you (plenty won’t get on a horse with a rearing history). There’s the possibility that you get asked to leave a boarding barn because your horse is considered unsafe. There’s the possibility that, out of desperation, you fall in with a bad trainer who specializes in “fixing” problem horses, because that’s the only person you can find willing to work with you. There’s a possibility that all your horse friendships fizzle and fade, as first you are inundated with well-intentioned advice, and then are slowly phased out as an object of pity or a cautionary tale. Of course everyone is right there to root for you if you ever do get it together, and you can’t blame people for being people. But it can certainly be depressing and socially isolating to be in over your head with a horse!

I’m not saying all that will happen. I will say it happened to me. And I don’t regret it. It’s been a wild ride and I’ve learned so much more than I would have from an easier horse. But I don’t know that I would wish it on another person. Especially not someone whose previous horse had to be PTS in a pasture accident while still in training. Maybe you’ve used up all your bad luck, and you’re fine to take a gamble on this young guy. But unless you enjoy driving home from the barn in tears, and feel that no riding goal is complete without great suffering, I would keep looking!

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I agree it makes “perfect sense” to keep your reputation as a seller unblemished, but like others have said, so much can go wrong if even a great horse goes to a bad situation, it’s rare to taint the seller unless he/she does something like drugging or misrepresentation of vet/ show records.

Also, this is a sales barn. It’s not like an owner selling a beloved horse that was a bad fit or is downsizing. Someone selling a personal horse might be concerned about him going to a good home because of a sense of love and obligation. Sellers make money by selling fast, not by a horse eating feed while the seller is waiting for the perfect match. Disclosing the rear is likely the “well, I told you he had it in him” out if you get seriously hurt.

Also, in some ways, erratic stuff is the hardest thing to train out. At one barn there was a horse who was an angel off-property and on, 95% of the time. But he had a wicked bolt (not as dangerous as rearing), that would come out of nowhere. Like, close the warmup ring for 20 minutes bolting until exhausted. It enabled a friend to lease him very cheaply! No one could figure out what caused it, and it only happened rarely.

You sound very sensible OP! Many people do fall in love with unsuitable horses, and once they sink more money into the animal, it gets harder to let it go (PPEs and trials and travel costs and finder fees add up).

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Exactly. If the horse has a problem, the seller can say that they disclosed that he reared and you bought him anyway. @MissusS I think you definitely made the right choice by looking elswhere.

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Another vote for PASS. As others have said, it’s a sales barn. Don’t expect to get absolutely accurate info about the horse’s past. The reason why they said the horse reared once is so you don’t come at them with a bunch of angry questions when the horse goes home and does it again.

If I were selling a personal horse that once did a light hop up a couple inches years ago and never again I probably wouldn’t even bother bringing it up. But this is a sales horse and they are disclosing it for a reason.

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My Spud reared the first day I had him when I tied him up to groom him. I hadn’t even ridden him except to try him out and he reared while tied. No idea why it happened and, of course, when I asked the seller about it she claimed he never reared with her and I must have “done something to him” to make him rear. Well, if tying him to groom is “doing something” then I guess I’m guilty. She offered to buy him back for one third of what I paid for him because she would have to fix all the problems I made. I had him for one day, less than 24 hours and I caused him so many problems? This horse knew how to rear and I’m sure he had used it before, it was controlled and not explosive, he knew what he was doing. I wouldn’t be surprised if the seller sold this horse several times and then bought him back for pennies on the dollar once he reared with his new owner.

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“Raise your hand if you’ve ever been given the “if it doesn’t sell this week I’ll have to send it to auction [aka kill pen] story…”

No, but I think I may have told my trainer that, when I showed up with a horse that she would not have fallen for. She also has had to put up with, “But he has such a beautiful head…” reason for buying a horse. :slight_smile:

Mind if I ask what happened?

My first horse reared and flipped in the cross ties when spooked, but didn’t have any issues under saddle beyond the norm. When that incident happened I’d had him for quite some time.

I would be more concerned that a nice quiet beginners horse was at a sales barn and didn’t sell in 1.4 seconds through word of mouth.

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He wasn’t spooked, I was in his stall, tied him to a post and without warning, he went up, not very far, but he did. He never went up high enough to flip but it turned into an evasion to get out of doing something he just didn’t want to do. In this case, stand quietly to be groomed. When he did it under saddle, I never felt unsafe, like he was going to fall over. He no longer rears (thank god) and I absolutely adore him, he’s the sweetest most affectionate horse I’ve ever owned. He has a home with me forever.

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I have very mixed feelings about the question of rearing. In my book, rearing is the worst of under saddle vices. That said, I have only had one who ever truly did a full rear, and he only did it once (he was my 2nd horse, a show hunter gelding being taken cross country for the first time at summer camp). I have been on more than a few, my current included, that get a bit “light on their front feet” when they are either fresh or unhappy with contact or facing traffic they disagree with or whatever.

I tried my mare in a hackamore when I wasn’t capable of forgiving quickly enough. You better believe she threatened to go up. She had nowhere else to go. We quickly dropped that experiment. Do I think she should be labeled for the rest of her life because I wasn’t as quick or sympathetic with my hands as I should have been? No.

I also trust that I know how to ride a “light front end” and I know how to emergency dismount., but I don’t want to be on a horse with a full, dedicated rear. Karl Cook did a video dissection of a rear that pretty much puts a nail in the coffin for me. I just don’t believe that I can ride it out. Then again, one rear isn’t a deal breaker for me. It’s how the horse goes day to day and if I feel one coming on… and (with the likely offenders), if I can ride them through or past it.

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I think people are scared of it because it hasn’t happened to them, and because it so rarely happens compared to other vices like bucking, crow hopping, or a duck and spin. Most horses will not offer to rear because it’s physically difficult. Bucking and bolting are easier. But absolutely there are horses that have no trouble rearing and will volunteer to do it with the slightest provocation. The silver lining is that those horses can rear in a balanced way, and also aren’t necessarily panicked and worked up when they do it. It’s like it happens in slow motion. Just a vertical balk. Not hard to ride it out, not hard to emergency dismount either.

Personally, any time I have been bucked off, it has been a high-velocity, hard impact fall. Any time I have been reared off, it’s been no big deal. So idk, I prefer a balk and a balanced rear to a bolt and a buck, as far as vices go, but I also have more experience with the former.

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No, it’s because rearers will flip over on you. Maybe the ones you’ve worked with haven’t (yet) but it is not uncommon. Getting flipped on is nearly certain to land you in the hospital, maybe even in a casket.

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