(Update: Not this time) Can a farrier see a negative palmar angle without an xray?

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@BlueDrifter

Honestly, it is so hard to get a straight on photo by yourself. I couldn’t do much better on hinds, but I thought I would include his worst front foot, the low heel one, and a photo of it a year ago, in the same pads he was in prior to the new farrier.

New farrier pulled pads, let his hoof grow to ten weeks and then shod as depicted below. Now I know it takes time for it all to come together, but when I asked if there should be a “step-down pad” so he is not on low heels all at once, the answer was “no.”

Looking at the photos, I would say it looks worse, definitely looking like under-run heels without the pads, but maybe this is a step to migrating to padless? He is sound, but has started forging, hence the request to look at fronts. When my vet comes to xray on Thursday, I will get better photos.

And in fairness, I could not get this darling to stand square for the life of me, so the post-farrier photo is foot forward rather than square.

Is the bottom photo the current set up?? I hope not, I also don’t see the need for the above set up as well… His hoof balance actually looks better in the above photo (not including the pad and wedge shoe). Put the right trim on that foot and the balance would be great, maybe after one good trim. So if the bottom photo is current… you’re absolutely correct that it’s worse. Pad or no pad.

I can totally see why he’s forging. This foot is VERY short shod with heels very low, underslung and folding under, long toe that delays the breakover that is causing him to forge… Did you get xrays of all 4?

I’m not getting the warm and fuzzy with this farrier… maybe @kashmere can mark it up for you… she’s good at that

[BlueDrifter]

Horse has been in wedge pads for two years. The new farrier photo represents him being out of pads for 4 weeks. Instead of shoeing at 6 weeks, the new farrier wanted to remove pads and let his feet grow for a month. He was shod by new farrier last week, so this photo is about 10 days old.

Is a “rocker” shoe the same as one with a convex bottom? If so, that is what his new shoes are: rockers on all four.

[BlueDrifter]

@SusanO, yes that is what I see, too. Ugly! I was trying to visualize if that is a result of leaving the toe longer and removing the pad, as I don’t recall it looking that pad with pads on.

And does “short-shod” mean the toe is short, or that the shoe doesn’t extend past the heels far enough? I have heard people refer to it as being both. He has been going well in the padded set up, but new farrier said his toes are too short.

I can’t wait for clean photos and xrays tomorrow.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@BlueDrifter

@SusanO, yes that is what I see, too. Ugly! I was trying to visualize if that is a result of leaving the toe longer and removing the pad, as I don’t recall it looking that pad with pads on.

And does “short-shod” mean the toe is short, or that the shoe doesn’t extend past the heels far enough? I have heard people refer to it as being both. He has been going well in the padded set up, but new farrier said his toes are too short.

I can’t wait for clean photos and xrays tomorrow.

Short shod means the shoes are too small with the heels basically hanging off the back of the shoe. In this case if the shoe was set back where it should be the heels might be covered.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@BlueDrifter

Is a “rocker” shoe the same as one with a convex bottom? If so, that is what his new shoes are: rockers on all four.

The bottom photo does look like rocker shoe, that is set too far forward, so not really helping.

If you would also get pictures of the bottoms of the feet that would also help.

This is a good tutorial on getting good hoof pictures. Setting the camera on the ground when you take them is ideal.

Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

[Heinz_57]

@BlueDrifter

He has been going well in the padded set up, but new farrier said his toes are too short.

I have been mulling over this since you said it earlier and I am STILL so mind boggled by it!

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@Heinz_57

@BlueDrifter

He has been going well in the padded set up, but new farrier said his toes are too short.

I have been mulling over this since you said it earlier and I am STILL so mind boggled by it!

Yep…

[BlueDrifter]

I feel relieved. I love my vet. She said she thought the old farrier used too high of a wedge pad, and she thought the new farrier didn’t take enough toe, and wasn’t sure the rocker was placed correctly enough to add value… and that ultimately horse needed somewhere in the middle.

Also the divot on LF, which I thought was crushing of heel, she said is the new (bigger/wider, uncrushed) heel growing down over the narrower heel below it.

She agreed they bull-nosed the hinds.

Oh, and it no negative plantar angle – which means former farrier addressed it since we saw it in prior xrays a year ago.

I will see new farrier tomorrow morning and can show her these.

So here are the xrays, I hope I can attach this many!

Left front - the worse looking foot:

Left front xray

Right Front photo plus xray:

Left Hind photo plus xray:

Right hind photo plus xray:

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@BlueDrifter

I feel relieved. I love my vet. She said she thought the old farrier used too high of a wedge pad, and she thought the new farrier didn’t take enough toe, and wasn’t sure the rocker was placed correctly enough to add value… and that ultimately horse needed somewhere in the middle.

Also the divot on LF, which I thought was crushing of heel, she said is the new (bigger/wider, uncrushed) heel growing down over the narrower heel below it.

She agreed they bull-nosed the hinds.

Oh, and it no negative plantar angle – which means former farrier addressed it since we saw it in prior xrays a year ago.

I will see new farrier tomorrow morning and can show her these.

So here are the xrays, I hope I can attach this many!

Left front - the worse looking foot:

Left front xray

Right Front photo plus xray:

Left Hind photo plus xray:

Right hind photo plus xray:

Thank you for posting the films! The rocker is deceiving… if you remove the shoe and put the heel on the ground the angles are low and possibly negative left front. Right front is probably 0. No negative angles behind, but also low… flat to maybe 1 degree… 3-5 degrees is ideal. So the farrier wasn’t completely off.

Hopefully the new farrier can get him going in the right direction.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

This helps see the angles a bit better. Right front

Left Front, this one is negative by at least a degree.

Right Hind. I’ve also circled an area on both hinds that could be central sulcus thrush. Pictures of the bottoms of the feet will help see that as well.

Left Hind

[Obsidian_Fire]

@BoyleHeightsKid

your pictures (?) did not come thru…???

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@Obsidian_Fire

@BoyleHeightsKid

your pictures (?) did not come thru…???

that’s funny… I can see them??? Hmm I’m using google photos for image hosting. I must have done something wrong.

eta: tried to fix, let me know if it didn’t work

[endlessclimb]

I could see them the first time, and can still see them now.

[Obsidian_Fire]

Works now!

[BlueDrifter]

I am not surprised, that without the rocker, the palmar angles would be flat to low in the fronts. The pads were pulled, and I doubt, in the four weeks of waiting barefoot, that he grew enough heel to be back in balance.

Maybe the rocker shoeing is to take bridge that time until the heel grows?

Do you agree there is too much toe? I do. Plus his forging. That also suggest that the rocker needs to be further back and is too far forward right now.

I doubt the remedy is to reshoe this soon (10 days?), and he will have to live with this for 5 more weeks.

I will get photos of bottoms to check for thrush. Farrier had me pack Magic Cushion in fronts and not pick it out… it seems to have turned to cement and I couldn’t pick it out if I wanted… but that is not the case for the hinds.

[IPEsq]

You could address the forging issue now. You don’t necessarily have to adjust the trim to make adjustments to the shoe to improve breakover.

[BlueDrifter]

Well, new farrier looked at xrays and completely disagrees with shortening the toe, and feels the breakover is just fine where it is with the belly rocker shoe. Farrier thinks that equine vets aren’t current with shoeing and keep going back to standard techniques that farriers are finding don’t work as well as newer ones, and thus discounts my vet’s opinion.

Farrier thinks the tripping and the new forging are a result of something in the hinds. Looking at the right and left hind xrays the P2 bone is “sunk” further away from the hoof wall than the coffin bone, and this leads them to believe it is a hind end issue.

I could not wrap my head around how this relates to the front end, so I can’t explain the logic any better. (And the hinds aren’t really shod any differently than they were with old farrier, so I don’t see what we are doing with the hinds to improve the fronts… arrgh)

My main concern is the tripping and forging, which seem to me to be a front end problem, but hey, I am open, and farrier is adamant.

So I asked what farrier thought would happen in the next five weeks. Their expectation was that the tripping and forging would get better. Since I expected the opposite - thinking more growth would just make it worse - it seemed like a fair experiment. If it gets worse, we change, if it stays the same or gets better, we stay.

Horse is sound, he trips about 5 times in a 40 min training ride. He trips and forges just being hand-walked, so it isn’t just happening when being worked. Trainers feel some of the tripping is because they are asking him to carry his body differently. They think the new forging is because he is loosening up, balancing better and getting a longer stride in back, and will learn to get his fronts out of the way quicker.

This farrier has a good reputation, seems up on corrective shoeing at our regional equine hospital (Alamo Pintado in SoCal). Has made significant improvements to the 20+ horses in my barn. Charges above the going rate. And they prefer to lose me as a client than to change how they have shod.

It is always tough when a vet says one thing and farrier another. I realize farrier probably knows more. I just know my horse didn’t trip and forge with former shoer.

Maybe he will be a better mover with this approach. I like being out of pads, I can see the heel cushion expanding and getting fuller – all good things that weren’t happening before. Maybe the former shoer relieved tripping but was causing a different problem with crushed heels instead.

I really appreciate everyone’s input. It was this forum that identified long toes two years ago and prompted me to move to my former farrier who shortened toe, put on pads, and tripping resolved. You guys always open my eyes.

I am just going to carefully watch and see what happens. I am glad he doesn’t have a glaring negative plantar angle in the back. Fingers crossed that the new farrier is correct and trip/forge are minor hiccups as we migrate away from pads.

[IPEsq]

My guy is prone to tripping and forging, and while different body carriage can contribute, if he was moving “better” to cause forging, he wouldn’t be tripping too IMO. I also wouldn’t mind some forging as he gets tired in work. For mine, that is a sign that I need to wrap up the ride as we work on conditioning, because he is getting fatigued. But forging even at the walk?

And based on X-rays mine doesn’t have too much toe. We try not to over trim his toes or you might see them stand camped under some because the heels are too high, relatively. That could cause tripping because the balance is off. But with forging too, he’s just not getting his front feet off the ground fast enough. You can change the shoe placement. Perhaps the belly rocker isn’t right for him, although it did improve palmar angle. But it might need to be set back farther. He is shod pretty full at the toe and short in the heels. He could also grind down the toe of the shoe some so there’s less vertical height at the toe. Plus set it back.

The X-rays may look improved but you have to also look at how the horse is standing and moving.

[Heinz_57]

I do hope it works out for you!

That said, the ‘its my way or no way’ attitude of your farrier makes me scrunch my face up. I agree that not all vets are up to date on the latest therapeutic shoeing techniques, but to not be willing to even consider trying to tweak things is a bit too rigid for me.

[BlueDrifter]

@Heinz_57, scrunches up my face, too. But I also respect people who really believe in what they do and are willing to stand by it. Just wish I could understand why the longer toe wouldn’t make one trip.

I told them “if I had clown shoes on, my break over would still be in the same place, but with 4 inches of extra shoe at my toe, I would certainly trip… so why isn’t the horse the same?” I got an answer about how the curve of the belly rocker would require the toe be too short, etc… and thats where it didn’t make any logical sense to me and I dropped it.

Do you remember those Bear Trap brand platform sandals? Probably in the 70s. They had solid wood bottoms. I recall how difficult it was to get my own breakover working on them, lol. So I sorta like the idea of a rocker vs a flat shoe…

@IPesq, I feel like I can only watch and wait now, but a very good point that better carriage might cause forging, but should reduce tripping. I am sure my trainers are now on alert about him doing either forging/tripping while riding, they had no idea that I was so aware of it, and hope it doesn’t influence what they feel is the right training technique. I really like them as trainers.