(Update: Not this time) Can a farrier see a negative palmar angle without an xray?

[BlueDrifter]

My tripping horse has been sound ever since I got a new farrier and she did natural balance shoes plus her skills.

Moved to a new barn and will need a new farrier. A respected one watched him move, thought he looked tight in the hind end and said it was due to his “negative palmar angle.” And that his prior tripping was likely due to hind end issues, and the shortened toe + NB shoes on the front end was just a bandaid.

Now he did have a negative palmar angle by xray in the past. I don’t know if this slipped out in conversation, but farrier said they could tell just by looking.

Is that possible? His hinds have plenty of heel and are not under-run, so those classic signs are not present. I didn’t think one could tell negative palmar angle without an xray…

[Heinz_57]

An experienced eye can make a pretty good guess, sure.

Did he say palmar angle, or plantar? Palmar refers to the front feet (when used correctly), plantar is hinds. But I see palmar used often to reference either one. I’m just trying to figure out which pair of feet he’s talking about, since you mentioned hinds.

Did he tell you what his idea of a correct fix would be?

[No1]

As @Heinz_57 says, you can make a pretty good guess by looking at the foot. However, sometimes even an educated eye can be wrong for various reasons. As you know, only way to tell for sure is to take balance films.

[BlueDrifter]

The farrier said palmar, but was referring to the hinds. I didn’t know the term plantar was the correct term for hinds.

The fix was to go barefoot for a month (boots) – which meant it was 10 weeks since last shoeing, providing plenty of hoof – and then to put on a shoe that was rocked in the middle, not at the toe, but right at the fulcrum, and minimal paring. Like those Sketcher tennis shoes with the round bottoms. A very slight rock, but you can see it if the horse is on flat ground.

He has only had them for a few days, seems no worse for wear at the moment. Farrier said it would take 3 shoeing cycles or more to be effective.

I am tempted to get xrays again just to be sure. Being “tight in the hind end” could be anything, but his prior xrays a year ago, did show negative plantar angle – so the fact that the farrier mentioned it was amazing to me. My horse has also dipped his left stifle, like stepping into a hole occasionally, so I wouldn’t be surprised if something was going on. He is 14. Farrier also left the fronts longer than former farrier, saying horse was “too short” and that was part of the band-aid to stop tripping…

[EventerAJ]

No one has xray vision, but a farrier who does a lot of therapeutic sport shoeing (with accompanying films) probably has a good idea of a negative or flat horse compared to one with proper angles.

My farriers had a vet take xrays of my horse’s hinds several years ago, and put him in steel rails behind (with a “belly” rocker as you describe). He wasn’t showing any symptoms under saddle, but had a bullnosed appearance, and with his heavy workload my farrier wanted to be proactive and help his hind end. Horse wore the shoes for about 4 months, competed in them (including winning a CCI2*) and after his angle improved he went back to regular flat shoes.

Since then, I’ve had my farrier use rail/rocker shoes on one or two others, without xrays, but I trust his judgement.

On hinds, look at the hairline of the coronary band from the side, with the horse standing balanced and square. If it is very steep (from heel to midline), that frequently indicates negative plantar angle. My farrier demonstrates this with his rasp placed along the coronary band, mimicking the angle of the hairline, and visually extending that line…if the imaginary line “hits” the horse in the forearm, he’s good. If it is sharply upward, “hitting” the horse’s belly, the plantar angle is probably negative.

[kashmere]

There are absolutely distortions that are visible externally that are characteristic and indicative of NPA (and yes, palmar is technically fronts while plantar is hinds, but when referring to the angle, many people just use “palmar” interchangeably). I think it’s important to look at distortions of the foot collectively and not rely on a single indicator.

Steep hairline (much higher in front than in back)
Excessive concavity at the toe
Bullnose dorsal wall (more common on hinds)
Dished dorsal wall (more common on fronts)
A bulge and dip in the quarter
Stretched bar laminae
Broken back hoof-pastern axis (technically still guesswork without a radiograph, but pretty easy to see once you’ve looked at enough!)

All of the above are common on low or negative palmar/plantar angle feet. One on it’s own wouldn’t be enough to make me say “this foot is low/neg PA” but as they start to add up, you get a clearer picture.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

If you google “negative plantar angle horse” you will get many examples of what a hoof can look like on the outside that will give you a clue of a possible negative angle. The bull-nosed profile is the most common example of what is very possibly negative plantar angles.

Measuring the collateral grooves can give you a really good idea too… if it’s deeper at the toe than at the back of the frog or the measurements are the same you know you have an issue. Ideally you want 1/2" at the apex of the frog and 3/4 to 1" at the back of the frog.

[candyappy]

Obviously your previous farrier was doing something right if your mare was sound for the last year?

I am always a little leery of a new farrier ripping apart the work of another ( esp if horse was sound) and his leaving her toes longer would worry me because that is a fault of a LOT of farriers.

Maybe keep an album of her feet as each shoeing progresses so you can see if something is going downhill.

Were you happy with the last farrier and her work and your horses overall movement and comfort level?

I know that wasn’t what you were asking but just a word of caution that hopefully is completely unfounded as time goes by.

[BlueDrifter]

Wow, thanks, all good information to check out tomorrow and get pics.

@EventerAJ I appreciate the “hairline hitting forearm” guidance, and the fact that the shoes were only temporary – part of me thought they can’t be in these belly rockers permanently, can they?

@kashmere He never looked bull-nosed to me before, but now I am searching for a prior photo of his feet to compare because if I stare hard enough, I can make him look bull-nosed, lol.

@BoyleHeightsKid, collateral grooves seem good to me, gonna measure tomorrow.

@candyappy, ah… now this is my worry, too. He was going fine with former farrier, but his fronts were in wedge pads. Pads that we put on because horse was off and xrays showed a bone cyst. Later MRI said “no bone cyst, just an xray artifact” but the pads never came off after a year, despite horse being sound.

Farrier kept saying my horse didn’t grow heel, but he had plenty of heel to me, and when I asked this forum awhile back with photos (Oh! there might be some good photos to look at, if I can find them…) the consensus was that he had enough heel.

The new farrier’s first question to me was “why is he in pads?” Which was music to my ears. But then it went a bit further to be critical of former farriery work, which was a slight bit of red flag. Especially about toes being too short. My guy is a ranch quarter horse and I am at a dressage barn where all the horses appear to have longer toes in comparison.

Former farrier did not notice negative plantar angle, but xrays showed it. I never took another set of films to know if it was corrected. But new farrier’s observation of a negative plantar angle contributing to his way of moving “tight behind” was a green flag.

There is enough interesting comments to make me continue on this path with watchful eyes. This is the first farrier that has wanted to watch my horse at W-T-C, which I liked. I think I will get xrays all the same.

Photos tomorrow! Appreciate everyone’s help!

[BlueDrifter]

It isn’t the perfect shot, but today’s was no better. This is after new farrier shod and it does look a little bull nosed to me. I need to find earlier photos to compare. But still, from looking at this, can one tell a negative palmar angle?

I am scheduling xrays tomorrow. Just seems like a good idea, and will help new farrier if nothing else.

In the week he has had them, I notice he is forging more. Trainer concurs, but attributes it to new training rather than shoeing. Jury is out until a little more time goes by.

[skydy]

@BlueDrifter

It isn’t the perfect shot, but today’s was no better. This is after new farrier shod and it does look a little bull nosed to me. I need to find earlier photos to compare. But still, from looking at this, can one tell a negative palmar angle?
I am scheduling xrays tomorrow. Just seems like a good idea, and will help new farrier if nothing else.

Will look forward to hearing about the x-ray results. Thanks for updating, this is very interesting.
I hope your beastie’s issues are easily solved.

I can’t help with any sort of professional opinion. My pay grade has always been more of a “that doesn’t look right” or “that looks good”. To me there seems something not right about that hoof, but take that for what it’s worth, only suspicion, and what has been done to address the issue by your new farrier I am certainly not qualified to opine.

As you know, there are people here who are farriers and/or have quite detailed knowledge of farriery and I’m not one of them…

I managed to keep mine sound and balanced, only through changing farriers when things didn’t seem “right” to me.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@BlueDrifter

It isn’t the perfect shot, but today’s was no better. This is after new farrier shod and it does look a little bull nosed to me. I need to find earlier photos to compare. But still, from looking at this, can one tell a negative palmar angle?

I am scheduling xrays tomorrow. Just seems like a good idea, and will help new farrier if nothing else.

In the week he has had them, I notice he is forging more. Trainer concurs, but attributes it to new training rather than shoeing. Jury is out until a little more time goes by.

I’m looking forward to what the xrays say as well… you may not have a negative angle here, but possibly flat… I have corrected this by maximizing breakover, bringing the heels back to the back of the frog and floating the quarters… you may even have enough sole depth at the toe to actually shorten the toe from the bottom of the foot, but I would only allow that with a set of xrays.

Hoof balance like this can most certainly cause tight sore hamstrings and even soreness higher up. If he is forging, I’m curious what the fronts look like. Forging is usually caused by a delayed breakover in the front feet. This is usually caused by a breakover that is too far forward (long toe). I don’t think his heels behind are underrun “yet” but I don’t like the direction they are going. It’s good you are catching this now. It will be so much easier and faster to correct.

[kashmere]

Interesting picture, thanks for sharing! The angle of the picture makes it tough to really assess - we would need a true ground-level lateral view to really get accurate information, but that being said, we can see some things with a zoom in and a rotate to get ground-level parallel to the bottom of the hoof:

• The yellow line is just a straight line down from the coronary band and helps to see that the dorsal wall is convex (bullnosed).

• The blue line closest to the ground traces the growth rings showing a bulge and dip in the quarter. You see this mirrored in the bulge at the coronary band

• The red line is approximately the angle of growth of the tubules at the heel - you can see that it is sort of trying its hardest to run forward. Often in hinds you will see not the super long forward grown heel that you see in fronts, but rather they will just end up really squashing flat.

From this specific one picture, I don’t feel that I personally have the information to declare a negative PA - but it does seem likely that the PA is lower than ideal. Curious to see the radiographs, if you’re willing to share when you get them done!

[BlueDrifter]

@BoyleHeightsKid, @kashmere Thanks for your feedback. I am searching through my photos to see if I can find more “before new farrier” photos, just for comparison.

New Xrays on Thursday, that I am happy to share. It is all learning.

@BoyleHeightsKid, I will get fronts and better hinds photos tomorrow.

@kashmere – the blue line(s) Since the one lower to the ground in more pronounced, would it seem that the shoeing was getting better between those two points?

[kashmere]

Hmmm. It’s hard to say - often you will see coronary band distortion that doesn’t exactly mirror how the distortion looks in the hoof wall below. I’m not sure whether that’s because there is a different capacity for the actual physical materials of the hoof and the coronary band to distort, or if it’s possible to read more into it.

I think seeing more pictures through time would be a better way to assess the changes of the hoof

[BlueDrifter]

Honestly, it is so hard to get a straight on photo by yourself. I couldn’t do much better on hinds, but I thought I would include his worst front foot, the low heel one, and a photo of it a year ago, in the same pads he was in prior to the new farrier.

New farrier pulled pads, let his hoof grow to ten weeks and then shod as depicted below. Now I know it takes time for it all to come together, but when I asked if there should be a “step-down pad” so he is not on low heels all at once, the answer was “no.”

Looking at the photos, I would say it looks worse, definitely looking like under-run heels without the pads, but maybe this is a step to migrating to padless? He is sound, but has started forging, hence the request to look at fronts. When my vet comes to xray on Thursday, I will get better photos.

And in fairness, I could not get this darling to stand square for the life of me, so the post-farrier photo is foot forward rather than square.

[Heinz_57]

@BlueDrifter

let his hoof grow to ten weeks

Was he really, really short to start with? Or do his feet grow exceptionally slowly? In my not-a-pro experience, usually extending long cycles tend to let underrun heels go even more underrun 🤷 I agree the shoe with pad from before looks better balanced, though. Does he have a bit of high/low heel in the hinds too? I keep looking at that photo and I can’t tell if my eyes are playing tricks or if the cocked foot actually has a much lower heel than the other.

[BlueDrifter]

Well new farrier thought he was, but he was at the 10 week mark post shoeing – and no, his feet seem to grow quick enough. Has always been on 6 weeks. He loses a shoe at 7 weeks. So I didn’t think he was short to begin with. He was tripping more, but also wearing trail boots while growing out.

I think his hinds are fairly even.

I was surprised to see the photo comparison of the fronts myself, as his fronts never struck me as low/high heel syndrome at any point of my ownership, but that photo sure makes it seem that way.

Interesting comment about growing out just makes them run under. Makes perfect sense to me. That’s why I though one used a “step-down” wedge pad to gradually wean them off pads.

I am not one to second guess farriers, especially if they have a credible reputation. I always assume I will learn something new. But I am one to “trust, but verify” hence the xrays. The new farrier should like having xrays, too.

[EventerAJ]

How long was the horse in pads, since the pad photo was taken?

How long has the horse been out of pads in the “current” photo?

The current photo shows really crushed, underrun heel…which can definitely be caused by 6 months to a year in pads. Pads crush heels; yes, it lifts the back of the foot, but it puts just as much as much weight on the heel as without pads. A true rocker/rail shoe will let the heel lift while “floating” with no weight pressure, thus encouraging the heels to grow down, not under. That’s the theory, anyway.

Here are pics of a low heeled TB I had in training. First pic taken in February; notice the left foot is in a new rocker shoe, the right foot hasn’t been done yet, in a plain race plate (and very flat!). Second pic taken in April, on a 4-week schedule, so his 2nd reset.

[SusanO]

Yikes! I will let the experts post here but that foot has the heels running horizontal. I Think it is worse than before but the before picture does not have quite the same angle and the foot is dirty so hard to tell. Both pictures make the horse seem short-shod but I could certainly see the horse grabbing the heel of the shoe if it was longer due to the angle of the foot.

I don’t know if this is an improvement or not.