Update p122: good news/bad news. Is this founder? Xrays included

[atr]

I’m going back 5 or 6 years, so the biologics have made significant advances since then, but when my giant moose of a warmblood came up with a significant stifle lameness, my vet recommended against exploratory surgery, his view being that it was invasive and could do even more damage, and we went straight to stem cell. He harvested fat from his sternum and sent it out to be processed.

The lab delivered us chilled stem cells every few weeks and the vet came over and injected them.

With that and about 6 months of small paddock turnout (he was so not a candidate for stall rest) he came sound enough for 2nd level dressage and I rode him for another 2 years.

He never could get a flying change on that side though. He’s now retired due to a chronic on/off lameness issue on the opposite front, which is interesting and I have wondered about the relationship between the two.

[alteredcarbon]

That’s interesting! Stem cells are an option but very expensive, I didn’t get a quote for them from the cheaper place though. I’m guessing you never got a diagnosis on the front issue?

The opposite front is the one with the rotation on my horse, so we are guessing it’s related. I have been paddock resting her at night as I am not able to stall rest and it’s so hot right now they all just stand under the shelter and swish flies during the day anyway. I also have not had good luck with stall rest for soft tissue issues in the past once they’re past the initial phase.

[atr]

He was 20ish then so we weren’t going to go for much more than the basic diagnostics, no MRIs, etc.

He’s quite happy moseying around a pasture–so much so that people ask why I don’t bring him back to work, but he obviously gets “zingers” through that foot and can be dangerously unpredictable under saddle when he does. Which is why he’s retired. Its remarkable how many people think that they could magikally get him sound and return him to his former glory.

4 years and counting of nice retirement board is, however, something I choose not to do the math for. Were I a more practical person I should not have embarked on this financial drain.

[alteredcarbon]

Update, got a second opinion.

Second opinion vet thinks the feet show very thin soles but no founder or real rotation. Borderline, if anything, and mechanical in nature due to the thin soles. They want her in shoes and pads all around because she is ridiculously footsore, the reason I originally had a vet out. I will not use my current farrier for shoes and I have some concerns about keeping shoes on her as she doesn’t have much wall to spare and has a history of yanking shoes off in a matter of days. I do have another farrier to try just for her, though. It’ll be a logistical nightmare but she’s uncomfortable so I’ll do it. I’d prefer boots but I think the trim has to change regardless.

The second opinion vet also said the original stifle ultrasounds are hard to interpret due to not being labeled well so they aren’t sure what exactly they are looking at. They did say she has some bony “differences” on X-ray are likely congenital vs an injury and may be contributing. Something about certain structures being flatter than normal. This vet does not suggest surgery at this time as the horse doesn’t really flex off. They suggested doing IRAP, Adequan/Zycosan, and estrone and putting her to work to see if all of that plus shoes gets us a functional horse.

I pulled for IRAP and got the estrone, but need to coordinate with a farrier before we start injecting. The vet says the IRAP will be almost pointless until we get her comfortable on her feet and I agree. I doubled up the pads in her front boots today and will cut pads for her back boots next, and I’m looking into shoe options. I’m thinking composites and entertaining glue ons if only because they are less likely to take hoof with them if she yanks them off.

It was a very expensive visit, but I walked away feeling more optimistic than I have since the last appointment. We went from Wobblers to founder to $$$$$ surgery to something a little more manageable. It’s been a rollercoaster.

[atr]

That’s a positive update!

[Demerara_Stables]

@alteredcarbon

I’m thinking composites and entertaining glue ons if only because they are less likely to take hoof with them if she yanks them off.

There’s another thread here about glue ons (Has anyone done this: DIY glue ons after farrier trims). I’ve got a few horses in them and would highly recommend them. They actually can act as the shoe and pad (depending on the model) and it’s not too hard to re apply yourself if she pulls them (which does happen but it’s much less common than in nail ons). These are what my farrier recommends: https://easycareinc.com/EasyShoe/EasyShoe-Versa-Grip-Glue.asp.

[TWH_Girl]

That is a very sound (no pun intended) protocol. And manageable as you said. I think most of us on this site are willing to do what it takes to make and keep our beloved horses comfortable. It’s not easy and it definitely costs money. But it is worth it.
Looking forward to positive updates in your mare.

[alteredcarbon]

Update with some questions:

Footsoreness is getting worse. New farrier is scheduled for mid-July (earliest possible). In the meantime I have had my mare in boots and pads up front until a boot ripped irreparably and I ordered a replacement. My mare made it 1.5 days barefoot before she became incredibly sore, so I taped pads to her feet and put her in my other horse’s boots that are 2 sizes larger. She’s comfortable in the boots and pads.

Recently I have noticed that her front soles and frogs are white, chalky, and I’m able to scrape material off of both with a hoof pick. Her backs are not doing the same, though I’m seeing new bruising. I thought that chalkiness was dead material trying to exfoliate, but she doesn’t have much material to lose? I’ve not seen it on frogs before either. Could this be something else contributing to the soreness? I have sporadically packed her feet with sugardine due to some stinky thrush, but it’s been irregular and the chalkiness predates the sugardine.

TLDR: white chalky shedding on front hoof soles and frogs that scrapes off with a pick? Dead material or possibly something else?

Ugh. I feel bad for her. It’s incredible how she went from sound barefoot except on the rocks to EXTREMELY sore in turnout without boots + pads. Vet did say she’s been trimmed very short, but the last time she was trimmed was end of May and she’s just been getting more sore. Hopefully the new farrier can help, and my vet is keeping an eye on her.

[RhythmNCruise]

There will be others with far better insight and advice than I could ever give, but I wanted to ask if you’ve ever used Durasole on her? I use it on my thin-soled gelding, and I like it because it can be put all over the bottom of their feet, frog included, and not only toughens them up, but also helps with anything like thrush or white line. I’ve noticed that when my gelding is a little ouchy, maybe right after a trim or after we’ve had some wet weather and his feet are softer, using Durasole regularly will usually help him.

Just a thought.

[candyappy]

I have no experience with hoof boots but do they hold in moisture? I just wonder if her feet are too damp being in boots/ pads all the time?

[alteredcarbon]

It’s been bone dry here, and she gets the boots off for a couple hours each day to air out her feet. Standard procedure for boots, and I use gold bond in there as well.

[candyappy]

@alteredcarbon

It’s been bone dry here, and she gets the boots off for a couple hours each day to air out her feet. Standard procedure for boots, and I use gold bond in there as well.

It was just a thought. I didn’t know if their feet get hot and sweat in there like some people have issues with sweaty feet. Mine are always cold.

[barnesthenoble]

@alteredcarbon

white, chalky, and I’m able to scrape material off of both with a hoof pick.

This is very standard for horses in 24/7 hoof boots, even with dry environment and a couple hours to dry out every day plus powder. The hoof does actually sweat some moisture through the day, plus whatever moisture from skin and hair that are covered by the boot. It’s normal. I just brush it off with a firm brush and reapply powder.

I’ve also used Hoof Armor, suggested above, to help, and it does help stop the chalkiness and build up more sole in boots.

What is she eating? Forgive me, but have you posted pictures of her feet? What boots and pads are you using?

[alteredcarbon]

Okay, good to know! I was worried her feet were just sloughing off.

She eats (total per day): 3lb TC Senior Gold, 6lb Kalm and Easy, and gets vitamin E, Cu, Zn, biotin, a gut supplement, salt and/or electrolytes, local fescue/orchard hay, and sometimes some local alfalfa. The pasture is dry and dead.

It’s a lot of grain, but she just wasn’t putting on weight until I added more. She was eating 6lb kalm and easy, plus hay pellets and a fat supplement and she was still a bit thin. Then I had her on Ultium (4 pounds a day), but switched to the TC Gold when her feet got sore. She looks good now.

I do have some sole pics upthread, I think. But she’s in Cavallos with comfort pads or some insulation foam I have, depending on fronts or backs.

[alteredcarbon]

Update again, good news and bad news.

Good news:
I got her first round of IRAP done, as well as put shoes and pads on. Vet told me to put her to work - be reasonable but not too conservative.

I started their plan of 10 min walk, 1 min trot, 10 min walk, and adding a minute of trot every day until doing 10 minutes. It goes on from there but that’s the start. First two days riding she felt great! A lot of her fussiness in the bridle is gone.

Bad news:
She immediately pulled both front shoes. We have had a ton of rain and the horses went a little wild in turnout. She lasted barely a week.

I have her back in boots up front while I try to find a way to get the shoes fixed (her hinds have slipped a bit too but are still attached at the moment). I rode her only in the boot setup. Day 3, she’s lame. She feels just as bad and “disconnected/wonky” as she did right before I called the vet. However, the bridle issues are mostly gone, so I think maybe the stifle feels better but the feet are an issue?

Ugh. Has anyone had a horse in substantial boots like Cavallos + pads and had the horse come sound only in shoes?

[lenapesadie]

@alteredcarbon

Ugh. Has anyone had a horse in substantial boots like Cavallos + pads and had the horse come sound only in shoes?

My dearly departed Norman went better in shoes than boots (in general). I dunno if the shoes kept pressure off his soles better or if shoes gave him a better break over or both or something else all together

[sascha]

@alteredcarbon

Ugh. Has anyone had a horse in substantial boots like Cavallos + pads and had the horse come sound only in shoes?

Yes. My foundered horse was in boots and shoes and insulation for months. Then we transitioned back to shoes. A few years later back to shoeless.

I will say that my vet and farrier had me put her on a much slower route back to work. No trot until we were up to 45 minutes of walk adding a minute a day or it may have been every other day. It felt like forever. It was pretty much a summer of walking under saddle. I then reintroduced half steps before we went to a big trot to make sure her butt was engaged and she wouldn’t tank off on her forehand and pound those front feet to shit.

[alteredcarbon]

I’d wondered about that. However, a lot of routines I found online also go to trot pretty much right away… My vet wants her to build up to trotting for 30 minutes (in intervals) before we go canter.

The conflict is the stifle needs fitness and more than the walk can give. But her feet could certainly be an issue. She runs around in turnout now (she didn’t do much more than a few trot steps before we did IRAP and shoes), but going downhill is hard. It was hard for her to go downhill when she got here, it got better, and now it’s back to slightly better than when she first arrived.

So much info out there says that boots should offer the same support as shoes with some additional benefits, but I feel as if my horse needs more than that. I’ve never had a horse that needed shoes for anything other than protection from the showgrounds (no boots in hunters), so having a horse that isn’t comfortable ridden in boots is new to me. To be clear, she’s sound in the boots in turnout and feels great at the walk, it’s the trot that regressed MASSIVELY after two rides.

[TWH_Girl]

How soon after IRAP did you start to work her? Also, if this is the first injection of IRAP, it normally takes 3 injections about a week apart. Given her diagnosis, I would be inclined to rest her until the entire IRAP series is completed and she’s had a chance to heal a bit. It may have been too much too soon.
Can you confine her in a smaller area? I would try to keep shoes and pads on if it’s dry enough. That’s likely to be more beneficial than boots so long as she can keep them on.

[sascha]

@alteredcarbon

The conflict is the stifle needs fitness and more than the walk can give. But her feet could certainly be an issue.

@alteredcarbon

. To be clear, she’s sound in the boots in turnout and feels great at the walk, it’s the trot that regressed MASSIVELY after two rides.

Look up in-hand work for starting piaffe. You can put a metric ton of stifle support on a horse without trotting.

I have also done the intense stifle fitness work (after internal blistering) and wish I had been smart enough to figure out in-hand and under saddle half steps right off the bat. I could have shortened my 2-rides a day stint by weeks. Imo, there are better ways than pounding out the miles (especially on a horse who probably has sore feet) to build stifle support.