Update post #38 - Done with New Vocations!!! Misrepresenting horses with ringbone!!!

[LilyandBaron]

Definition of slander: the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person’s reputation

Nothing posted was false - friend’s vets diagnosed ringbone, ad didn’t reflect. And by your own post, you admitted the “no apparent injuries” was a “mis-edit.” Hopefully the ad will be re-edited…

I personally found many good accolades for NV (including mine for my STB) but also more criticism of the KY NV barn than I’d anticipated when I checked, and as factually noted, other posts, like post #32 in this thread I found that MelissaK also found (http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?469934-Experiences-with-New-Vocations&p=8725976#post8725976) noted similar concerns well before my friend’s experience.

Accusing someone of slander for true statements is actually slander, lol. However, I do not like when these things devolve. I have said all pertaining to my knowledge of the situation. As noted, readers here can do their research on any rescue they choose to support.

[vineyridge]

You have two sets of vets who disagree about the horse’s future soundness. One is the “seller’s” and one is the “buyer’s”. Seller has the same xrays as the buyer. If I were trying to get rid of this horse, I would definitely disclose the disagreement to any potential new home. And suggest that they get an independent review of the rads by a vet that they trust. To me anything less smacks of fraud. Or to put it more kindly, of the long established lack of ethics in horse dealing. Places like NV are supposed to be above caveat emptor

And I would certainly not advertise it as sound for all disciplines. There are ways to qualify the listing which would make it less questionable and possibly deceptive.

[trubandloki]

I always find it strange when a seller stomps their feet and says ‘we WILL disclose all that to interested parties’ but are not willing to put any clue that there is something that needs to be disclosed in the ad.

I think in this case simply putting that there are current Xrays would be enough for people looking to know there is something worth asking about.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8725541]
R&R did a PPE and missed it too. I am sorry for your friend but it’s hard with horses unless you have a crystal ball.

Regarding the ad, it’s possible that they haven’t done their own vet diagnostics. I know now not to believe everything a buyer or leaser says about my horses - it may be possible that NV relisted the ad and did not adjust it because they do not have proof of ringbone.

StormyDay, I disagree --most TBs are great minded quiet and laid back. NV gets a lot of horses that were trained and treated very well – most of them are a high cut above the horses you find in claiming or on the backside.[/QUOTE]

Ringbone seldom appears on flexion test, it is usually diagnosed by radiographs, after blocks, etc It also has a habit in early stages of being a very subtle lameness. Thereby allowing the horse to appear sound until actually put into work. Hence"no apparent injuries".

Since she offered copies of the radiographs, I would question their honesty.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8726179]
I always find it strange when a seller stomps their feet and says ‘we WILL disclose all that to interested parties’ but are not willing to put any clue that there is something that needs to be disclosed in the ad.

I think in this case simply putting that there are current Xrays would be enough for people looking to know there is something worth asking about.[/QUOTE]

I think you are assuming they won’t discuss that in the email correspondences, which I can say from first hand experience having been involved in the adoption of a horse from NV or inquiring on my own behalf that they do thoroughly indoctrinate you to the horse’s history, if they have it. This all sounds like a shipshow, from OP’s friend to the handling of it; a precursory glance at OP’s thread history makes me enough of a skeptic to believe there is much, much more going on behind the scenes than OP is saying. There are also discrepancies in the story, NV seems to have the rads and disagrees with the diagnosis.

@merrygoround;8726182

Ringbone seldom appears on flexion test, it is usually diagnosed by radiographs, after blocks, etc It also has a habit in early stages of being a very subtle lameness. Thereby allowing the horse to appear sound until actually put into work. Hence"no apparent injuries".

You don’t have to tell me, BTDT with many horses with actual ringbone/degenerative joint disease.

[Jersey_Fresh]

They are very transparent and open with their horses to the best of their abilities. I spoke to the trainer about potential horses and when she sent me information on one she thought would be suitable, she also sent me 7 xrays of a joint he had been rebabbed on so that I could show my vet. Why would they hide things on one horse but not others? God forbid two vets do not agree on a diagnosis.

[LilyandBaron]

Oh, boy, I want to look at my thread history now! I commented on another NV thread I found after this incident that corroborated my friend’s experience, but I’m not typically involved in drama. Good to know my posts are apparently salacious. lol.

[jump_pony]

Wow , I can’t believe this post.
NV does amazing work rehoming horses, does the OP really think they are dirty horse traders when the adoption fee is on an average is 500 dollars for these lovely well bred TBs?
i have a friend selling a pricey warm blood right now, first buyers vet thought, the horse might have djd, so the sale fell through, next buyer’s vet found nothing, seller’s vet, second buyer’s vet reached the same conclusion, first buyer’s vet disagrees.
Anybody who had been around horses has seen vets disagree, no need to trash an organization publicly .
By the way Jump Pony,( he is not really a pony just short like me!)came from the NV KY facility and he is amazing, they disclosed everything,and were wonderful to work with.

[ace]

[QUOTE=jump pony;8726387]
Wow , I can’t believe this post.
NV does amazing work rehoming horses, does the OP really think they are dirty horse traders when the adoption fee is on an average is 500 dollars for these lovely well bred TBs?[/QUOTE]

This was my thought as well - no experience with NV - but $500 adoption fee would barely cover 1-2 months of expenses for anyone taking a horse off the track, before training hours - so its not like they are rolling in money from “selling” horses dishonestly.

[LilyandBaron]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/nation-july-dec13-stephens_10-27/

Not saying this level of issue, but implying a non profit is immune from ethical issues is unrealistic… They obviously have some source of revenue to operate - maybe they are pushed to turn horses around? No idea, I can only comment on what I saw and the fact that other COTHers noted similar problems in the hunter/jumper forum. As most have noted, why not put “X-rays available” in ad? What would that hurt? All I gain from this thread is hopefully encouraging NV to fairly represent this horse and all of them so they get best homes. I am an NV adopter, so was sharing my horror at the situation. I don’t see how noting horse was returned due to a diagnosis and they can certainly add their vets’ views is an unreasonable expectation.

[jump_pony]

Using words like your “horror” over the situation does show you have an ax to grind.
Vets disagree, NV discloses what they know to people interested in a particular horse, when they call about the horse.
At this point you are just acting petty, NV answered your questions, why do you feel the need to trash them?
They are a great organization , and they work hard to rehome horses, most people have great experiences with them.

[Jersey_Fresh]

[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8726514]
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/nation-july-dec13-stephens_10-27/

Not saying this level of issue, but implying a non profit is immune from ethical issues is unrealistic… They obviously have some source of revenue to operate - maybe they are pushed to turn horses around? No idea, I can only comment on what I saw and the fact that other COTHers noted similar problems in the hunter/jumper forum. As most have noted, why not put “X-rays available” in ad? What would that hurt? All I gain from this thread is hopefully encouraging NV to fairly represent this horse and all of them so they get best homes. I am an NV adopter, so was sharing my horror at the situation. I don’t see how noting horse was returned due to a diagnosis and they can certainly add their vets’ views is an unreasonable expectation.[/QUOTE]

NV’s vet disagrees with your vets diagnosis. So what do you want them to write on the description? " We have two vets that disagree on radiographs, one says ring bone one says nothing. Flip a coin"? They are very upfront when someone emails about a horse (see my post), so I don’t doubt for one second that they would let any interested parties know about this. They aren’t trying to hide it. It isnt ebay, you don’t click on the link to buy the horse sight unseen no information.

The horse I inquired about has nothing in its ad either. But without even asking, they sent me every xray of the joint in question and full disclosure of the issue. How much more transparent do you want them to be?

Think about it. If they were dirty and repeatedly adopted out horses that they knew were lame, that would ruin their reputation. No one would want to adopt from them.

[HorseKrazy]

While I can understand the general frustration, op, what exactly is your direct involvement in this transaction? My understanding is that this isn’t even your horse, but it was a horse your friend adopted. Shouldn’t that be their ax to grind and their responsibility to “out” NV?

[Halfpasser11]

I’ll be the first to say I love New Vocations, what they do, and what they stand for. My current horse is a NV horse and is pretty awesome.

However, after some dealings with the KY and N OH locations I would only ever adopt from the Marysville location. Amy is every good thing that is outlined in this thread. Open, honest, forthcoming about physical or mental problems and really REALLY cares about the horse. I vetted two horses there and brought one home.

You can see my comments regarding the KY location on the H/J thread. I went down 3 times to look at several horses and found them misrepresented either physically or in their behavior. As well, when I returned a horse to the program (good horse but not suited to the housing situation I had access to) I was treated poorly. I loved riding the horse but she was NOT happy in a show barn. I told the KY facility as to hopefully find her the best home possible. I was treated as if I was “dumping” a perfectly fine horse, that my vets didn’t know what they were doing, and that I didn’t care about anyone but myself. Honestly, I was treated as if I was insane.

Good news, the horse found a great home. The new owners called me to discuss some problems they were having (same ones I was having, I’m not insane!). They made some changes and they are doing great. Not so great news? The information I gave to the NV KY facility about this horses housing needs were not “disclosed to any interested parties”. I do not begrudge NV this, they run a large busy program and they didn’t value my opinion (nor do I expect them to) enough to pass it on. But, then the new owners ran into the same problems and the horse could have been returned yet again.

I say this only because I really like NV. But we need to remember that despite everything, we are buying horses from individuals, who are varying shades of perfect.

[LilyandBaron]

Thanks, Halfpasser, for expanding on your experience in KY! Sounds remarkably similar to my friend’s. Like you, my friend wanted the information from her vets to help the horse in his next home, but was also treated like the lowest possible scum. I do find that to be horrific for a reputable charity. I’m not sure I’ll do future business with NV as the issue was reported. I’m a supervisor and manager myself, so I believe in effective management. I love my NV STB, and when the attitude about the return offended my friend, I encouraged her to try other NV barns based on how great the team at the STB barn was. But not being up front about the horse and diagnosed issue, even if reportedly debated, isn’t good business from any organization, nor is the attitude about returns. I hope it’s true the KY barn is more honest in correspondence, but it’s also misleading when many NV ads do note limits, and this horse was never 100% sound in work and it also sounds like even the NV vets observed something. But if others see no issue and only a witch hunt on my part, whatever;). It’s the risk of posting something like this. Again, everyone can make up their own mind if they think smoke means fire or not.

[Gumby80]

I have never had any dealings with NV. However, if any horse for sale was described as “sound for any discipline”, and it turned out later that a well regarded vet had diagnosed him with a condition that could make him NOT “sound for any discipline”, I would not be especially reassured by “oh, but our vet thinks he’s fine!” I would be a bit miffed if he was advertised as sound, but then on inquiring further I was made known of the issue. Well, perhaps I can show the xrays to my vet (who doesn’t have a vested interest), and we can talk about it.

If however, that information was withheld completely, in the hope that I wouldn’t do xrays at my PPE, I would be furious. It’s not just my money at stake, it’s the future wellbeing and comfort of the horse. If there’s a question about a horse holding up to jumping, find him a flat home.

I’m sure that NV does great work. That doesn’t exempt them from being honest and upfront.

[bauhaus]

Well, I have never worked with them but have always had nothing but respect for New Vocations. I’ve often thought (still do) that they would be at the top of my list if/when I’m looking for a new horse.

Having said that, I was shocked the other day at a video on their site of a horse who was clearly taking uneven strides behind, with no mention of the unevenness in the ad. It does mention an old injury but not which leg, and goes on to say sound for jumping or flat. This horse might well be eventually, but boy he looked wonky in the video. I opened this thread to see if the video I saw was the subject. It was a different horse but still :uhoh:

[Jexa]

Please tell me I’m not the only one who finds this entire thread bizzare. I have no dog in this fight, I’ve never dealt with NV but would certainly give them a look if I were in the market.

OP, this was NOT your horse, correct? It was your friend’s. It’s a reasonable assumption then to say you were not present for every vet consult, every communication with NV about this horse? As such, I don’t get why you think this is your dirty laundry to air. It’s definitely not slander (rolled my eyes at that one), but I’d say it’s not entirely ethical either to make claims about events that you are not first person privy to.

But I also don’t understand posters who are hellfired to say that NV can’t be to blame. If this post was about “Seller X” instead of NV, even if you’d successfully done business with them in the past, would your response be the same? It’s fine to say you’ve had good experiences with them in the past, but to say they therefore are never going to screw up is ridiculous. Especially since as noted NV is not one person or even one barn, it’s a multitude of individuals.

It seems to me that if the facts are indeed as presented here then the ethical, simple fix is for NV to edit the add to say something along the lines of “this horse has a radiographed bone abnormality that is not expected to limit his future career.” It’s accurate, since it seems all vets agree there is an abnormality but NV’s vets dont believe it’s actually djd, and also transparent; anyone reading the add can now inquire about the rads and, if they desire, buy a copy and have their own vet take a look.

I mean, am I missing something? Well, other than the fact that this is COTH and we like proclaiming judgement on situations we aren’t a part of? :lol::lol:

[LilyandBaron]

Happy to report the ad was edited today! It no longer states no known injury and says “should be suitable for all disciplines.” I do hope he’s sound, and hope his new owner uses him for something he’s most suited to.

Regarding my involvement - I leased my OTTB mare to my friend for her son to ride the past four years. My TB and her son even won their divisions at our county fair, which is on a racetrack! My TB wasn’t drugged or lunged to death, but was better for her young rider than many other breeds often thought calmer and more kid-friendly. I encouraged my friend to look at NV, and went with her to look. I’ve ridden many OTTBs in multiple countries, and loved the eye on Stone Cold Wild. He is a great minded animal and it broke my friend’s heart to let him go, but he can do some jobs and not be just a pasture ornament, which she felt would be better than her boys riding him too hard or ignoring him. I hope only the best for the horse, and thank NV for responding to the concerns expressed here and modifying the ad. I think for many of us, I feel more confident when any seller or rescue fully discloses all possible issues to prospective customers.

[JDW]

I

[QUOTE=beowulf;8725553]
I don’t know - I have had great experiences with NV and their transparency. I wonder if there’s more to the story than what we were told.

Without proof of ringbone (which OP says her friend has yet to supply) I also would not take a buyer’s word seriously. People say all kinds of things to return horses and get their money back.[/QUOTE]

WOW! Really? I AM the original adopter and I can completely guarantee you, I did not just say something to “get my money back”.

I DO have X-rays AND a vet report. And they were all given to NV.

Originally, I just did a PPE with a R&R vet and there was nothing alarming with the flexion tests (front feet all flexed negative). The vet that day did suggest xraying the front feet because they were shod so poorly (angles) to help may farrier, BUT since nothing flexed positive just said I could do it with my regular vet when I got home.

Soooo . . .

Went to take the horse to my trainers and he was off that morning. Both me and my trainer are very concerned about horses comfort and welfare so we decided to get a very reputable lamess vet to come check him out before we put him into work to see how to proceed with conditioning / riding.

Front feet flexed fine (again) just a little sore in one of his hock which wasn’t really a big deal (vet said he could have done it playing / getting up). We were all talking about how to proceed slowly with reconditioning and gradually progressing and then this vet asked if I wanted any other X-rays (besides the hocks we just did). So at this point I said lets do the front feet for my farrier.

He found an “osteophyte” (I’ll stick with medical terms) on the P2 pastern joint.

I sent the Xray to the R&R vet that did the PPE and he said we would have had a different conversation that day had he seen this. Not that he would have told me not to take him, BUT we would have talked about his activities and maintenance.

Also sent the X-rays to my “usual” vet. Then to another R&R vet (BUT that discussion just focused on him being a dressage horse).

I also spent the next 3 weeks researching “pastern arthritis”, “ringtone”, etc.

The vets that I spoke with said he could easily have a long happy career as a flat work horse. But about the “osteophyte”, there were no guarantees or crystal balls. MAYBE it wouldn’t be an issue, MAYBE it would. They did all stress that he would have to be shod carefully so that his toes did not get long and he would break over very easily. The consensus from MY vets was that pounding and twisting probably wasn’t in his best interest.

So after 3 weeks of agonizing, researching, and talking to vets, I decided to take him back. Note that he was originally adopted for my teenage boy (14) to do contesting (pole bending) and light jumping. Yes, he is that athletic and good minded.

I thought that it was in his best interest to find another family. Let’s face it, a horse needs to have a certain level of sturdiness for a teenage boy, they aren’t going to just ride straight lines and 20 meter circles. The horse obviously had something either happen or going on with that joint and it didn’t seem right to ride him in a way that could very likely aggregate his condition or make it progress. Why do that to him?

My gripes are that they advertised him as having “no apparent injuries” it makes it sound like as far as they know, NOTHING is going on. And then the treatment - the trainer was not interested in a anything I had to say when I returned him and in fact spoke to me as little as possible. And when I first called saying I wanted to bring him back told me something to the effect I was lucky they had a 60 day return policy or else I would just have to deal with it. I didn’t think I was lucky, I purposely went to an adoption place with a return policy.

Also as far as “dumping” the horse or “just saying anything to get my money back” - - - that horse had The VERY best of care the whole time he was with me. I did a 6 week course of ulcer treatment (hundreds of dollars), had him chiropractic 3 times, put weight on him (no easy task as he was very ribby when I got him), worked with him and gave him lots of attention. Etc, etc., etc. Trust me it had NOTHING to do with money or dumping, I REALLY wanted what was best for him (which was NOT my teenage boy at that point).

He was wonderful and will make a great horse for someone. Just didn’t think it was fair to ask him to do what we adopted him for.