Update post #38 - Done with New Vocations!!! Misrepresenting horses with ringbone!!!

[LilyandBaron]

My friend adopted Stone Cold Wild from NV in KY, and had Rood and Riddle vet him. He flexed clean, so didn’t do extensive x-rays. She’d explicitly told NV she wanted sound horse for son to possibly event, other son to do Western contesting(poles, barrels, etc.). Stone Cold Wild had great brain and size, so she took him home. But he was NQR, so initially thought farrier and getting over racing plates would help. When he was still off, she called vet. Did x-rays, and he’s got ringbone. So, not a good match, despite a great brain. But he could be sound for flat work if managed properly, just not stresses of jumping or the quick turns of speed events.

NV no longer refunds adoption fees, but gives credits. She was within 60 days, so took him back. The attitude of the trainer/manager was hideous, but that’s not something concrete. But my friend kept an eye for horse to be re-listed. AND it’s a complete lie! Literally says horse has no known injuries/believed sound for ANY discipline!!! Friend called NV, and they said they’d “talk” to trainer. Week later, the ad remains. My friend has the x-rays and offered to send them to NV, but at the very least, should have modified ad!!! I have seen ads mention limits, so why the dishonesty??? I found old threads on here specifically note the KY barn misrepresents horses. I’m outraged! I adopted an OTTSTB from them, great experience. I get each barn being a little different, but when upper management tolerates lies that could impact adopters and the poor horses, it’s inexcusable!!!

Just had to put this out there - so disillusioned now. Erg.

[meupatdoes]

Wow, just checked the ad and it does indeed say “no apparent injuries” (heh) and “body and mind to be suitable to any discipline.”

If your friend really has these xrays and they know about the ringbone that is disqualifying to me for ever getting a horse from them.

[StormyDay]

I have always been a bit suspicious of NV. It seems that every horse they list says ‘Great mind, easy to work with, quiet, laid back’ Anyone who has worked with OTTBs knows most of them are not quiet or easy to work with coming off the track. It disillusions people. I love OTTBS, but saying one recently off the track is ‘calm and laid back’ makes people who will be overfaced by an OTTB buy them. Then the horse is worse off and so is the rider.

[FLeventer]

Wow, thats no good. I cant understand why they would misrepresent a horse after you offered xrays to them. Especially when they have all those guildlines and stuff for the horses in their new homes.

[beowulf]

R&R did a PPE and missed it too. I am sorry for your friend but it’s hard with horses unless you have a crystal ball.

Regarding the ad, it’s possible that they haven’t done their own vet diagnostics. I know now not to believe everything a buyer or leaser says about my horses - it may be possible that NV relisted the ad and did not adjust it because they do not have proof of ringbone.

StormyDay, I disagree --most TBs are great minded quiet and laid back. NV gets a lot of horses that were trained and treated very well – most of them are a high cut above the horses you find in claiming or on the backside.

[trubandloki]

@beowulf;8725541

How is it their fault? R&R did a PPE and missed it too. I am sorry for your friend but it’s hard with horses unless you have a crystal ball.

I do not see where the OP blames anyone for the original lack of diagnosis.

@beowulf;8725541

Regarding the ad, it’s possible that they haven’t done their own vet diagnostics.

Editing an ad is not hard. They should edit out the part that says sound for all purposes and simply not mention soundness while they do their own diagnostics if that is the reason for the delay. Pretty simple solution.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8725550]
I do not see where the OP blames anyone for the original lack of diagnosis.

Editing an ad is not hard. They should edit out the part that says sound for all purposes and simply not mention soundness while they do their own diagnostics if that is the reason for the delay. Pretty simple solution.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know - I have had great experiences with NV and their transparency. I wonder if there’s more to the story than what we were told.

Without proof of ringbone (which OP says her friend has yet to supply) I also would not take a buyer’s word seriously. People say all kinds of things to return horses and get their money back.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8725553]
I don’t know - I have had great experiences with NV and their transparency. I wonder if there’s more to the story than what we were told.

Without proof of ringbone (which OP says her friend has yet to supply) I also would not take a buyer’s word seriously. People say all kinds of things to return horses and get their money back.[/QUOTE]

If they are so transparent then modifying the add to not mention soundness at all while they investigate should not be a real issue for them.

BTW, I do agree that I have found most OTTBs are pretty laid back once they are not living at the track.

[LilyandBaron]

My friend did offer the X-rays, but they didn’t take them (or I thought since ad didn’t reflect - per post by MelissaK, they did…). She was thinking of posting them on their FB page, as it’s so unfair to a truly wonderfully-minded horse (they didn’t misrepresent that part) and to a potential adopter. I found it interesting to read old posts on COTH when I searched that pointed out concerns with the KY barn specifically, vs. good reports on the Marysville, OH location, but my point is that I think the organization should have oversight of all the locations on matters like this!
I could get the X-rays and vet records on the horse and post here, if my integrity is at question - I gain nothing from slandering NV;) I own an OTTB I purchased from a trainer, and did get my husband’s trail horse, an OTTSTB, from NV, so I’m all for the mission of NV. I’d planned to look for future horses through them. Which is why this blew my mind! I know that they have ads all the time that point out issues and limits like trail or companion-only - so why not edit the ad? Why say “sound for all disciplines” if there’s any question. And it took no time to get R&R out for the PPE before, so if that’s why they aren’t editing the ad, they’ve had ample time to corroborate the vet reports from my friend. Again, I hate it for such a wonderful mission - not sure why they’d do this other than to perhaps ensure turnover? I was ready to just write-off the KY barn, but with my friend reporting this to NV and them not correcting the issue, I’m very disappointed in the overall management of the organization. I’ll keep an eye on the ad to see if they change it, but taking this long just doesn’t make sense regardless.

I also wondered if they just automatically posted his previous ad, as they were using the old pictures from the ad my friend responded to (horse blossomed and gained weight under her care, btw). But the ad wasn’t the same - the part about how kind he is in the last sentence, which is VERY true, was new! I really tried to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I’m done.

[TheJenners]

Maybe they don’t want to accept the rads because they have no guarantee they are of the same horse? Just a guess. Would your friend be able to get a letter from her vet assuring the rads belong the (color) (marking) (breed) horse known as (reg name)? And she can send that all along? No point in keeping rads belonging to a horse she doesn’t own anyway, and might save some heartbreak down the road for someone else.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8725566]
If they are so transparent then modifying the add to not mention soundness at all while they investigate should not be a real issue for them.

BTW, I do agree that I have found most OTTBs are pretty laid back once they are not living at the track.[/QUOTE]
I’m really not arguing whether or not they should have adjusted the ad – I’m just pointing out reasons why they may not have yet. I know from personal experience people lie to return horses - I’m not saying OP’s friend did (I doubt it) but other people have and that certainly ruins trust from a seller’s perspective.

Adjusting an ad on a website like NV isn’t as easy as 1-2-3 – not many people (especially in the horse world) have any sort of coding experience. I’m not familiar with NV’s platform but I’m familiar with other big website platforms and usually you have to submit your revision to another party that handles the web. There’s a lot going on at NV, I would truly be surprised to see them just shrugging off a ringbone DDX. My guess is there is much more going on.

[Albion]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8725805]
Adjusting an ad on a website like NV isn’t as easy as 1-2-3 – not many people (especially in the horse world) have any sort of coding experience. I’m not familiar with NV’s platform but I’m familiar with other big website platforms and usually you have to submit your revision to another party that handles the web. There’s a lot going on at NV, I would truly be surprised to see them just shrugging off a ringbone DDX. My guess is there is much more going on.[/QUOTE]

What? Plenty of other ‘big website platforms’ are easy to handle & don’t require a 3rd party to handle changes (I’ve never heard of such a thing for a website that needs to be updated frequently, as one assumes NV’s does). NV’s website appears to be built on a WordPress back end. WP is just about idiot proof - and requires no “coding experience.” It has a WYSIWYG editor, for crying out loud. They also have a “Marketing and Media” manager, who one ASSumes would have something to do with website management.

I’m sure there are several reasons NV hasn’t done anything about this, but I sincerely doubt their website is one; and if it is, they should probably find a platform more in-line with their needs.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8725805]

Adjusting an ad on a website like NV isn’t as easy as 1-2-3 – not many people (especially in the horse world) have any sort of coding experience. I’m not familiar with NV’s platform but I’m familiar with other big website platforms and usually you have to submit your revision to another party that handles the web. There’s a lot going on at NV, I would truly be surprised to see them just shrugging off a ringbone DDX. My guess is there is much more going on.[/QUOTE]
I suppose this could be the case but since the OP says the ad has been changed in other ways they clearly could have made this change at the same time they told the special web site adjusting person to make that other change.

[RockinHorse]

It is possible that the horse is currently sound and the ringbone was not the cause of the friends issue with the horse. If this is the case, then just because it is not in the add does not mean that it is not something they are planning to disclose to interested parties if they inquire about the horse.

[MelissaK]

The spreading of misinformation or incomplete information is in no way helpful to the welfare of this horse. Stone was always sound in our care. Upon notification of his adopters wish to return we followed our protocol and brought him back in to the program. We do have the xrays his adopter sent and have shared them with 3 vets, 2 of which are surgeons. The veterinarians advised us based upon the images that we were provided, this horse does not need to be limited in a future career. We have done our due diligence to the best of our abilities. I do agree that the “no apparent injuries” was a missed edit from re-using his old ad but our vets do believe he is suitable for jumping careers. We will absolutely share his xrays with every interested, approved adopter as we always do. At that time they may have them viewed by their vet and may also have PPE done as well. There is no reason for New Vocations to misrepresent horses as we have a return policy and ultimately want the horse to stay in it’s new home.

For this case there seems to be a difference in vet opinions which is not unusual. All we can do is provide the information we have to any potential adopters and let them and their vets decide.

[LilyandBaron]

Good to hear from NV (assuming MelissaK is from post). As a potential adopter, I’d want ad to note the ringbone and rads available, along with current soundness commentary. Many other ads note specifics of any known issues. Also, since from your post, it appears vets all agreed there was ringbone, but possibly disagree on current impact to soundness, then it actually doesn’t sound like much of a disagreement. Ringbone is progressive and needs particular management, which some adopters may not want to pay for or really have access to, depending on the quality of farriers in the area. I would not buy a horse with diagnosed ringbone due to the challenges in managing it to preserve soundness, nor do I know many that would. I hope the ad could be edited to reflect the knowledge on the horse, and I think we can all agree said horse is awesome and deserves the very best outcome - a home that can keep him sound and happy for the rest of his natural life.

[MelissaK]

[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8726011]
Good to hear from NV (assuming MelissaK is from post). As a potential adopter, I’d want ad to note the ringbone and rads available, along with current soundness commentary. Many other ads note specifics of any known issues. Also, since from your post, it appears vets all agreed there was ringbone, but possibly disagree on current impact to soundness, then it actually doesn’t sound like much of a disagreement. Ringbone is progressive and needs particular management, which some adopters may not want to pay for or really have access to, depending on the quality of farriers in the area. I would not buy a horse with diagnosed ringbone due to the challenges in managing it to preserve soundness, nor do I know many that would. I hope the ad could be edited to reflect the knowledge on the horse, and I think we can all agree said horse is awesome and deserves the very best outcome - a home that can keep him sound and happy for the rest of his natural life.[/QUOTE]

Our vets do not agree with the diagnosis of ringbone. This is a text excerpt from Clinical radiology of the horse third edition (Butler, Colles, Dyson, Kold, Poulos) which explains what they feel is going on.

“The term ringbone is widely used to describe new bone formed distal to the fetlock. It is an imprecise term and should be avoided.
Extensive remodeling of the dorsal articular margins of the proximal interphalangeal joint can be seen alone or an association with chronic oblique seasmoid desmitis. it is not synonymous with degenerative joint disease and although dramatic in appearance can be asymptomatic.”
We have done our due diligence and share all of the information available to interested, approved adopters when they inquire.

[LilyandBaron]

Ah, but ringbone isn’t a term most horse people avoid. And most understand it’s implications. I hope, for the horse’s sake, NV vets are correct. Vet that diagnosed ringbone is recognized lameness expert and former Rood/Riddle vet, but fingers crossed he’s wrong, along with the other two vets friend consulted with in hopes for a good prognosis. As to this thread - readers can make up their own minds.

[MelissaK]

[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8726053]
Ah, but ringbone isn’t a term most horse people avoid. And most understand it’s implications. I hope, for the horse’s sake, NV vets are correct. Vet that diagnosed ringbone is recognized lameness expert and former Rood/Riddle vet, but fingers crossed he’s wrong, along with the other two vets friend consulted with in hopes for a good prognosis. As to this thread - readers can make up their own minds.[/QUOTE]
Their current issue is not with the term ringbone, although the text writers have an issue with the term. Our vet’s stance is that this type of radiographic change is not the same as djd and be asymptomatic, aka not affect the horse. I think it is a fair assessment that slandering an organization whose efforts to rehome OTTBs are quite remarkable is not in any way helpful to this matter or Stone in particular.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=MelissaK;8725896]
The spreading of misinformation or incomplete information is in no way helpful to the welfare of this horse. Stone was always sound in our care. Upon notification of his adopters wish to return we followed our protocol and brought him back in to the program. We do have the xrays his adopter sent and have shared them with 3 vets, 2 of which are surgeons. The veterinarians advised us based upon the images that we were provided, this horse does not need to be limited in a future career. We have done our due diligence to the best of our abilities. I do agree that the “no apparent injuries” was a missed edit from re-using his old ad but our vets do believe he is suitable for jumping careers. We will absolutely share his xrays with every interested, approved adopter as we always do. At that time they may have them viewed by their vet and may also have PPE done as well. There is no reason for New Vocations to misrepresent horses as we have a return policy and ultimately want the horse to stay in it’s new home.

For this case there seems to be a difference in vet opinions which is not unusual. All we can do is provide the information we have to any potential adopters and let them and their vets decide.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MelissaK;8726043]Our vets do not agree with the diagnosis of ringbone. This is a text excerpt from Clinical radiology of the horse third edition (Butler, Colles, Dyson, Kold, Poulos) which explains what they feel is going on.

“The term ringbone is widely used to describe new bone formed distal to the fetlock. It is an imprecise term and should be avoided.
Extensive remodeling of the dorsal articular margins of the proximal interphalangeal joint can be seen alone or an association with chronic oblique seasmoid desmitis. it is not synonymous with degenerative joint disease and although dramatic in appearance can be asymptomatic.”
We have done our due diligence and share all of the information available to interested, approved adopters when they inquire.[/QUOTE]

As always, appears there is another side to OP’s story. I for one will be continuing my support of NV. If the horse doesn’t have ringbone/degenerative joint disease, which it appears it doesn’t after NV consultation and vetting, I don’t see why the text of the ad would need to be changed either.