UPDATE: The most beautiful embryo I've ever seen! A pony Totilas!!! NEW - PICTURES

[exvet]

You know I can’t help it but with my upbringing (dairy) and professional experiences, I’m all about prevention; so, I wouldn’t see myself doing such a cross if the size differences being stated are accurate. I also tend to be more of a conventional wisdom sort of gal (call me chicken). And to add to the pile on, I must admit and it should come as no surprise to the 3 of you who actively breed and promote GRPs that I subscribe to honeylips’ goals in trying to get the most athleticism but not at the expense of rideability. Of the earlier GRPs imported I’ve seen too many who were too much for their amateur (and junior) owners despite their shorter stature (still they were quality animals). However I will fully admit that I am intrigued and interested (in a positive way) in the resulting cross. While such a cross does not meet my personal goals, well if I had endless pasture and endless money…maybe…sure would be ‘nice’ to get a Totilas if there was someone to ride it ;).

Having said all that, welsh cob breeders have been, for years, breeding Ds to As and Ds to Cs (the stallion being the D) without an abnormal increase in foaling risks/issues. Of course most I know who breed to section A mares don’t do this type of cross with maidens; but, we’re still talking about large on small breeding. I have and will continue to breed D (15 hand stallion) to C (13 hand mare) because I’ve realized my goals with the cross and even when she was a maiden the foal was proportionately sized. You wouldn’t find me breeding my current stallion to a refined smaller mare; but, you also wouldn’t see a refined A, C or D mare in my yard any how :winkgrin:

[honeylips]

I don’t view this debate as “not getting along” but I do see you are very defensive about your choice of Totilas and don’t like the fact that other disagree with you choice of both him as a stallion and the big on small concept.

I do think we have 2 fundamental differences in approach/theory on breeding.
For me though when going down this breeding mode - I am more of a fan of the concept when doing this cross of Small on Big rather than Big on Small. Like the provent german pattern when using TBs of putting the “blood on top”. So I chose to purchase “small on big” as that seems to be a safer and somewhat predictable outcome thus far.
And as I stated before, is I am just not a Totilas fan as a breeding stallion for the USA amateur market, based on himself and his offspring. But it’s just me and I am sure there are a ton of ammy buyers in the USA who will love to have the chance to buy a ‘small’ Totilas should you decide to sell your foals.

But please note I am not the one picking your post apart and demanding answers about everything. The small on big is a concept I have supported with my money and mare band.

But my point is that 1) there is enough size and hot and movement available in the GRP breedings right now 2) if others on this board, less pony immersed, are interested in getting all the supremo movement I offered a list of pony stallions that will produce it 3) others have offered a list of hony stallions that will give size but not too much size.

[hluing]

For the sake on intellectual discussion (which I meay very well regret), I will disagree with one thing FoxCreek stated. She said “I can make 1/2 Welsh 1/2 Warmblood all day long in the US - I should not have spent the money on something that I can do just as well in the US”.

I don’t think that is quite true and here is why. Yes, she has access to the warmblood side and could have easily gotten a Sandro Hit mare to breed, but I think the Welsh side is more complex. Sure, we have MANY welsh ponies in this country and some are VERY lovely. But, I personaly think it takes an exceptional and unique Welsh pony to make this cross work. Do they exist in this country, probably somewhere, but the majority seem to be bred for more hunter type and some of the ponies that do well in Welsh shows just don’t have the type in my opinion to be knock out Sport pony sires.

Plus, add to the fact that it is a rare Welsh stallion owner that wants to hassle and expense of inspection into a GRP registry and the performance requirements to remain in one. I honestly can’t blame them as it is clearly a money losing exercise at this point. So, even if you found the ideal Welsh stallion, his offspring likely could not be fully aproved in a GRP registry.

Lastly, you can’t at this point get any approved German Welsh stallions by frozen semen…so dead end there as well.

Bottom line, like all GRP breeding, making the F1 cross of a calibur that will rival Germany is no easy task. At least in my opinion:)

[hluing]

Honeylips…I agree with many of your points. However, the vast majority of the stallions you listed (pony and small horse) are NOT available to US breeders and NONE of them are currently available to US breeders (unless they were savy enough to stock up thier frozen tanks a couple of years ago). Most of us do not have the funds to import all the bloodlines we would like, so we sometimes have to think outside the box. The more stallion owners that make quality stallions available to US breeders the stronger our pony breeding can become.

[Molly_Malone]

There are GRP approved Welsh stallion available fresh here aren’t there? (Evans… something… in California? oh my aging brain…)

[hluing]

There have been a couple…not sure if any are up to date. Plus…you just proved my point. Hardly compares to Constantin or some of the other very influential Welsh stallions in Germany.

[foxcreek]

This is why I hate these boards. I have been a member for 6 years and have a total of 87 posts!

As I said before: if the three of us were at dinner this might actually be an interesting and fun conversation. In this format it turns into a damn food fight. I would have loved to have had dinner with you Heather at the stallion testing, but you would hardly speak to me.

Absolutely nowhere in this thread have I been defensive about my choice of Totilas - quite the contrary, I’m super, super excited.

I knew full well when I posted that people have strong feelings about breeding large horses to small ponies. And I have not been defensive about it, I have simply stated that based off the extensive research, anecdotal evidence and personal experience I do not feel the risk is substantially higher than a normal foaling to try it this one time.

I also stated that I do not normally do this - and one only needs to spend a short amount of time on my website to recognize that I don’t normally do this. If I could buy a mare sired by Totilas for $5,000 then that would be much better - but pigs will fly before that happens.

Honeylips, you are making the implication that the warmblood cross is the only breeding theory for GRP’s that I subscribe to. Again, one has only to look at my website to see that clearly this is a far cry from the truth. Nearly all of my breedings have been GRP stallion to GRP mare - out of 17 planned breedings for 2014 12 are breedings to imported States Premium GRP mares. Something NO ONE else in this country is doing. I have only ever done one other warmblood cross and it was an Olympic Ferro mare to Halifax…

Which brings me to another point. Heather, what you stated is NOT true, and I can’t believe you even said it because you know full well its not true. Halifax is a GERMAN WELSH B available to US breeders. In Germany he is not used by Welsh B breeders but is only used in GRP breeding. One of the mares I bred to Totilas is sired by Halifax - and this was done on purpose.

Honeylips, you are also making the implication that I don’t breed for rideability. Again, have you looked at my website? Really? My 13 year old CHILD rides my ponies - not adult amateurs. The stallion I bought in Germany that finished 11th at the Bundeschampionat and is now a gelding is ridden by my SON and they have qualified for Pony Finals. Benno’s Dream is also regularly ridden by my son. My son has gotten to experience Piaffe and Passage on Benno’s Dream. I could go on and on naming the GRP ponies my son has ridden and is currently riding…

Rideability and temperament and size is and always have been the most important components of my breeding program. This breeding of Totilas to the Welsh mares is not the entire whole of my breeding program. It is a fun side branch that I wanted to try - not something my entire program is based on.

IMO, this is the first defensive post I have made. Now I’m going to go ultrasound some mares and plant some trees!!! Sheesh…

[hluing]

Wow…talk about making things personal! I have not said anything negative about you or about your choice of breeding to Toto. I did forget Halifax, but that is not a personal slight to you. I simply forgot him. However, one Welsh stallion hardly equals a large selection and I still think that we are lacking access to some of the German stallions that are key to producing those super F1 ponies, including your lovely Bella Sandra (I think that is her name…but you know I really like her as I have told you so in the past).

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=Molly Malone;6976034]
There are GRP approved Welsh stallion available fresh here aren’t there? (Evans… something… in California? oh my aging brain…)[/QUOTE]

Are you by chance thinking of Evans Providence of the Night? Or one of the other Evans prefix horses? Providence is here in OR currently and is competing this year with a trainer friend of mine (and is SUPER cute!). I know he’s approved AWS and ISR/Old, I haven’t seen anything about GRP.

[hluing]

There are no Welsh currently active with Weser-Ems in the US (although Halifax would be since he is in Germany).
http://oldenburghorse.net/oh/stallion-book/stallions-list/artikelliste.html
Wedderlie Mardi Gras and another Welsh used to be, but are not currently on the list.

[honeylips]

[QUOTE=hluing;6975879]
For the sake on intellectual discussion (which I meay very well regret), I will disagree with one thing FoxCreek stated. She said “I can make 1/2 Welsh 1/2 Warmblood all day long in the US - I should not have spent the money on something that I can do just as well in the US”.

I don’t think that is quite true and here is why. Yes, she has access to the warmblood side and could have easily gotten a Sandro Hit mare to breed, but I think the Welsh side is more complex. Sure, we have MANY welsh ponies in this country and some are VERY lovely. But, I personaly think it takes an exceptional and unique Welsh pony to make this cross work. Do they exist in this country, probably somewhere, but the majority seem to be bred for more hunter type and some of the ponies that do well in Welsh shows just don’t have the type in my opinion to be knock out Sport pony sires.

Plus, add to the fact that it is a rare Welsh stallion owner that wants to hassle and expense of inspection into a GRP registry and the performance requirements to remain in one. I honestly can’t blame them as it is clearly a money losing exercise at this point. So, even if you found the ideal Welsh stallion, his offspring likely could not be fully aproved in a GRP registry.

Lastly, you can’t at this point get any approved German Welsh stallions by frozen semen…so dead end there as well.

Bottom line, like all GRP breeding, making the F1 cross of a calibur that will rival Germany is no easy task. At least in my opinion:)[/QUOTE]

Agree 100%. And am enjoying the intellectual discussion in this manner!

[honeylips]

[QUOTE=hluing;6975923]
Honeylips…I agree with many of your points. However, the vast majority of the stallions you listed (pony and small horse) are NOT available to US breeders and NONE of them are currently available to US breeders (unless they were savy enough to stock up thier frozen tanks a couple of years ago). Most of us do not have the funds to import all the bloodlines we would like, so we sometimes have to think outside the box. The more stallion owners that make quality stallions available to US breeders the stronger our pony breeding can become.[/QUOTE]

Noted and agreed regarding the really fancy ponies in Germany by and large not having frozen. But for the price of 2 toto doses, storage, vet fees, 2 mare board from conception to weaning- I can find and import a legitament colt post weaning from any of those stallions out of a good damline. Just food for thought.

My own personal opinion - and it may be worth nothing- is that we are in very formative stages in our GRP breeding program here in the USA. It’s important that we serious breeders really invest in proven good mares and stallions and pay heed to the wisdom of the german breeders who have about 30 years head start on us. i think years from now when we have a good solid program that’s the time to start thinking out of the box, introducing more experimental crosses etc. but that’s just me!

[Molly_Malone]

[QUOTE=Heinz 57;6976248]
Are you by chance thinking of Evans Providence of the Night? Or one of the other Evans prefix horses? Providence is here in OR currently and is competing this year with a trainer friend of mine (and is SUPER cute!). I know he’s approved AWS and ISR/Old, I haven’t seen anything about GRP.[/QUOTE]

Yes! Thank you! I’m almost certain he was approved GRP , but obviously isn’t active. Another one was Benno’s (dream? oy - it’s been a long time…)

[hluing]

Honeylips…I agree with you in principle. Obviously we all want to use the best mare and stallion for a cross. But that will be different for every person. I have been in GRP breeding in the US since the very beginning when Makuba was the only stallion available, there was NO frozen, and it was rare to find anyone who had heard of a GRP. We have come sooo far in just over ten years and I have certainly learned alot. Over the years, I become more and more selective about what I will breed. However, we would not have made that progress if people did not take risks and sometimes do things slightly unconventional. Even back then, my rule was trying to keep things as close to the German way as possible.
I too am enjoying the exchange of ideas in a spirit of learning.

By the way, I think the Welsh Molly Malone may be thinking of is Telnau Falcon. Benno’s Dream is an imported GRP and not a Welsh.

[foxcreek]

But for the price of 2 toto doses, storage, vet fees, 2 mare board from conception to weaning- I can find and import a legitament colt post weaning from any of those stallions out of a good damline.

I respectfully disagree with this. I have imported a grand total of the following GRP’s:

9 mares
1 yearling
4 weanlings
2 geldings

I know VERY well how much it costs to import from Germany. Just the import cost [I]alone[/I] will set you back 2 doses of Totilas semen - $10,000. As for the other costs, those don’t affect me - I own my own frozen semen storage tanks, I did all of my own vet work, and I don’t have to board anything. So my total investment in each Totilas breeding is only the frozen semen.

It’s important that we serious breeders really invest in proven good mares…

This serious breeder has invested in “proven good mares” that were specifically chosen for their exceptional, proven dam lines. Imported German Mares and Fillies:

St.Pr.St. Die Oder Keine
St.Pr.St. Die Kleine Hexe
St.Pr.St. Seven Mountain Nasty
St.Pr.St. Lorena
St.Pr.St. Dornroeschen
St.Pr.St. Loretta
St.Pr.St. Aphrodite
St.Pr.St. Catania
Verb.Pr. Bella Sandra

(imported as either weanlings, yearlings or in utero and so unable to obtain the St.Pr.St.)

Mayflower
Design By Dior
Bella Donna
Cadeira
Snow Queen

Surrender Dew Drop - (imported GRP, but not by me)

i think years from now when we have a good solid program that’s the time to start thinking out of the box, introducing more experimental crosses etc.

I don’t know what is so experimental about a 1/2 welsh 1/2 warmblood cross. Caramel is the offspring of a 1/2 welsh 1/2 warmblood. He is only 5 years old so it’s not as if this was done 30 years ago and it isn’t being done anymore. What I think is exciting is that I have the correct GRP mare base to use for a second / third / fourth generation breeding. The F1 cross is easy for anyone to do - but then, where do you go next? That’s the tricky (and fun) part about infusing a dash of warmblood.

[Mel0309]

I’m not sure why everyone jumped all over the OP. if I wanted to spend $5000 to breed my donkey to Totilas I can. It is a free (well mostly, lol) country. She obviously has a plan whether or not it is what you or I would do, let’s be happy for our fellow breeders when they have exciting news. Can’t wait to see these babies as 4 and 5 year olds and hopefully their offspring in coming years.

[grayarabpony]

Everyone cites the pony/ draft study but no one should.

This study might give one some pause: http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/123/3/445.full.pdf?ijkey=8cc6181f48c49a3baa9c00121bb1d38da82afad9. Yes, uterine size does limit fetal growth, but that doesn’t mean that breeding horses of very different sizes isn’t without risk.

[foxcreek]

I’m not following you here. I didn’t read anything in that study that contradicts the original pony/draft study. In fact, the study states:

As uterine size is
directly related to the size of the mare, these parameters
will, in turn, govern the area for placentation and, hence,
fetal growth. Indeed, Walton and Hammond (1938) showed
that the size of the mare affects not only the intrauterine
development of her foal but also its postnatal growth rate.
AI was used to cross large Shire horses with small Shetland
ponies; a foal from a Shetland mare was produced that was
half the size of its reciprocal half sibling born from a Shire
mother; these differences in size persisted until adulthood
(Hammond, 1940).

and later in the study:

The results of the present study confirm and extend the
results of earlier studies (Walton and Hammond, 1938;
Tischner, 1985, 1987) to show that foal birth weight is
determined primarily by the total microscopic area of the
allantochorion, independently of the maternal or fetal genotype.

[New_Horizons]

Foxcreek, I am very happy for you and wish you the best of luck! I can only imagine how excited you must be!

[grayarabpony]

Take a look at the TB foal from the pony mare, and the weights of the TB foals from the pony mother. The TB foals were smaller but still weighed an average of 75 pounds, in comparison to the 50 pound weight of ponies born to pony mares.

You can’t just pick and choose what you want from a study to support your point of view; review the study critically, but cherry picking is never a good idea.

What was the n (number of subjects) in the early study? What was the quality of the study?

Btw, I hope this works out well. I’ve seen some videos of some gorgeous Totilas babies.