UPDATE: The most beautiful embryo I've ever seen! A pony Totilas!!! NEW - PICTURES

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=DeucesWild11;6970833]
Its a bad risk. The foal is more often too big for the mare. It can kill her[/QUOTE]
Incorrect. This is true for dogs, cattle and maybe other livestock, but horses are different. In the equine the foal only grows to the extent it has room in the uterus. After birth, the genetics kick in, and the foal will grow according to that.

There have been several studies done on this; the one I am most familiar with was done in GB, breeding Shetlands with drafts. 6 of each breed was crossed with the other (via AI in the case of shetland mares & draft stallions).

None of the 12 mares had any dystocia whatsoever. The foals sired by the draft stallions were a small measure larger at birth than the “typical” pony foal. The ones o/o draft mares by pony stallions were slightly smaller than the typical draft foals. By the time they were all 1 year only (or 18 mos – it’s been years since that study was done), the foals were all close to the same size.

I have personally bred a 14.1 mare to a 16.3hh stallion and that mare popped that foal out in less than 20 mins.

Size may have a role to play in equine dystocia, but far more often it is because the foal is mal-positioned.

I doubt the OP will have a problem.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;6979459]
That’s why studies aka books, are very beneficial. They are other people’s experience and it is only when you look at the bigger picture that you get an accurate one. Sorry about your loss.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Plenty of breeders have lost mares to dystocia. It does happen. But it might have happened even if she was bred to another pony.

However the fact is THE highest rates of dystocias is in mini’s. So that tells you the size of the sire is not the reason. It’s because of the “big-head issue”. But the risk is always there. Although I suppose breeding to a larger stallion may increase the chance of issues, each breeder has to access the risk to her mares.

I would say if these pony mares are relatively young, but multi-para, with a good repro history, the chance of issues is fairly small.

[JB]

@Kyzteke;6981987

Incorrect. This is true for dogs, cattle and maybe other livestock, but horses are different. In the equine the foal only grows to the extent it has room in the uterus. After birth, the genetics kick in, and the foal will grow according to that.

Not always true, and via the Shire/Shetland study, the Shire foals ET’d into the Shetland mares did not grow as big as the Shire in Shire foals did.

As well, the other study posted here clearly showed a relationship between the larger foal in the smaller mare being born with many of the pre/dysmature symptoms and clearly being less developed than the smaller-in-larger and same-size foals. Thankfully, for our knowledge, those dysmature foals corrected after some time, but some did require extra care in the beginning. But, at least with those, those were big horse foals in a pony mare, not a genetic mix, so it’s not fair to extrapolate that information directly to this particular situation. Still, it’s good info to be aware of.

[belambi]

Awesome news. What an exciting cross, best of luck with it!!

I wander how this fitted in with their ‘select’ mares only policy that they rabbitted on about when the originally purchased the horse?

[foxcreek]

UPDATE

I’m very excited to report that the second pony mare, a Downland mare, Madam Wu is PREGNANT!!!

So that’s 2 for 2 pregnant to Totilas! I hope they stay that way! Now how does one hold their breath for 11 months?!

[foxcreek]

UPDATE

UPDATE

I’m very excited to report that the second pony mare, a Downland mare, Madam Wu is PREGNANT!!!

So that’s 2 for 2 pregnant to Totilas! I hope they stay that way! Now how does one hold their breath for 11 months?!

[foxcreek]

UPDATE

UPDATE

Very excited to update that my second pony mare, a Downland mare, is positive with a pregnancy to Totilas!

Woohoo!!! 2 for 2 Now how do I hold my breath for 11 months?!

[Kerole]

Very exciting for you! Best of luck and please, please tell us how it all goes 11 months from now.

[L_L]

Have just been informed that a clients mare foaled a healthy filly foal without problems this am. The colt is 16.3hh and the mare a Welsh Section A. The mare and colt shared the same pasture, not sure what they were thinking but thankfully all is well.

[New_Horizons]

Congratulations foxcreek! Can’t wait to see what your mares produce!

[horsey1cr]

[QUOTE=foxcreek;6984600]
UPDATE

Very excited to update that my second pony mare, a Downland mare, is positive with a pregnancy to Totilas!

Woohoo!!! 2 for 2 Now how do I hold my breath for 11 months?![/QUOTE]

This is such wonderful news! I’m so excited for you foxcreek. Can’t wait to hear about the Toti-pony foals when they come.

[HorseKrazy]

^^^^^and see pictures!

[password]

Congrats to the OP!

And here is more interesting food for thought on the uterus issues. Not a controlled study, but we know of a 16 hand stallion that was bred to mares 14.2-17 hands. Only about one hundred foals, but out of them, there was a huge incidence of shoulder-locked foals and difficult births. But they were all out of the 16.2 plus mares! Not a single one out of the smaller mares.

I don’t think any of the mares or foals were lost, but nerve-wracking experiences and close calls getting these foals out.

So it made us wonder if these big mares had big uteruses that grew foals that were just too big to get through the birth canal? Obviously, one had to look at the stallion too since he is the one who consistently added a couple of inches to the fully grown offspring. The 14.2 hand mares had 15 hand offspring, the 17 hand mares had 17.2 hand offspring, etc…

But what was interesting is that the little mares seemed to have the ability to “shrink” the foals to fit, while the over 16 hand mares really had a hard time with this particular stallion.

And most of the big mares owners had spent their previous year fretting about whether or not their foal would be big enough since the stallion was “only” 16 hands, go figure!

So the lesson that we learned here is that you really never know how your mare is going to produce until you breed her. And many old timers swear that the first foals are the smallest (and stay the smallest), no matter the stallion, which makes one think that the uterus size is making a difference there too. Not to mention twins which never catch up to their genetic potential due to being crowded.

Interesting discussion, and once again, all the best to the OP and her exciting news!

[huntcup]

Can’t help the suspense. Foxcreek, how did these Totilas foals turn out and are your mares now safe and sound?

many thanks.

[myrna]

would love to see pic’s!!!

[KBC]

Looks like two foals were safely delivered, http://foxcreekfarm.com/Young-Stock would love to hear more about them, I see the OP hasn’t signed in for a few weeks though.

[AirForceWife]

http://foxcreekfarm.com/Young-Stock They’re both listed 2 bay colts and they are cute!

[sfstable]

[QUOTE][/QUOTE]I saw both of them last month and they are both super nice. I think at least one if not both will stay pony size. They are nicely put together and move well. I actually liked them much better than most of the “horse sized” Totilas foals I have seen photos of.

And both dams are doing well and delivered without difficulty

[foxcreek]

Sorry!!!

I took both pony mares to my vet for foaling just to be on the safe side. Both mares had no trouble at all and both foals were normal pony foal size.

I’m very pleased with both of them. Both received Gold Premium at the RPSI foal inspection. Of course its always hard to know for sure, but it does look like they will both stay pony size. They are both bay colts and I will keep them intact as stallion prospects. It will be very interesting to watch them develop and mature.

I couldn’t figure out how to insert a picture? These pictures are from the inspection.

This foal is “Fox Creek’s Treasure” and his pedigree is:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/fox+creeks+treasure

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35898862/1_2FC8455%20(2).jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35898862/1_2FC8473%20(2).jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35898862/1_2FC8439%20(2).jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35898862/1_2FC8478%20(2).jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35898862/1_2FC8502%20(2).jpg

[foxcreek]

And this is the second pony Totilas colt:

Fox Creek’s Talisman:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/fox+creeks+talisman

And the pictures from the inspection:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35898862/_1FC6433%20(2).jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35898862/_1FC6459%20(2).jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35898862/_2FC8370%20(2).jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35898862/_2FC8348%20(2).jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35898862/_2FC8405%20(2).jpg