Update - WWYD - PPE findings on young OTTB

[AAHunterGal]

@dmveventer

OP you haven’t answered the most important questions yet - how old is the horse, and has he been sound in full work?

He’s 5yo. Raced and won making 34k in 4 starts and his connections felt he wasn’t going to be able to be competitive at the next level so they are transitioning him into a new career. He had some let down time and has been back in consistent work since early December.

So no, not doing the job I want, but did do the racing job successfully (he didn’t never race or raced and wasn’t good at it).

I understand these findings increase my risk, and that young/unproven makes it even riskier.

From my POV, I’ve had two horses who vetted perfectly. One broke her LH splint bone in a pasture accident and didn’t heal to come back at the same level, and the other wound up retired at 5 from bilateral hind suspensories - it’s possible I bought her with them since I didn’t ultrasound them at the PPE, but who knows, the past is the past.

I guess if the vets were telling me to “walk away” which they have with the other horses I’ve PPEd this round it would be more cut and dry, but this time no vet has outright said that - in fact most are leaning towards “this horse can be managed for the job you want it to do and this also might never be an issue.” And these are GOOD vets.

So it’s just hard to parse through everything.

[dmveventer]

That is riskier. Have you had your own PPE done? It’s unclear if you’ve actually had the horse examined or just going off the last buyer’s report. I’d want to get my own vet’s hands and eyes on the horse to corroborate their read of the scans before making a decision. Personally I wouldn’t buy a 5 year old with those scans that hasn’t been in work. That’s too significant a finding for a young, unproven horse. The fact that he was retired after only 4 starts despite having some success isn’t a great sign either, would depend on the actual record but could be a red flag. You really can’t use his racing career as a sign that he held up work, it’s just not the same thing.

I think this really depends on whether you can only afford to have one horse, and whether this horse is cheap enough to make it worth the risk. You can’t prevent all injuries and you might have to retire a horse with a clean PPE, but this is a guaranteed risk to take on plus all the same risks of major injury that you would have with any horse.

Not every horse will have significant findings on a PPE. The “every horse has something” line gets thrown around a lot and isn’t totally untrue, but there’s a difference between finding early signs of arthritic changes consistent with workload vs. finding something like this. There are plenty of horses (OTTBs included) that will vet pretty well, especially if you’re shopping for something younger.

[AAHunterGal]

I’ve spoken with the vet who did the PPE (respected vet at Peak Performance in Ocala). I’m out of state, so my own vet could only look at the report/see the images. I’ve also gotten the opinion of several other vets that I trust. I’m still going to get another vet out this week who is also a chiro to do a pure back health assessment (and SI / Hind end / all things back adjacent) & maybe retake that one image making sure he’s standing correctly.

Horse is under 5k. The retirement after 4 starts thing I understand - some owners don’t want to bump the horse down to a lesser track and just run their legs off, & this was a horse owned by the breeder (Who also owned/bred his dam through his great granddam). So I believe it when they say they just thought he had a lot to offer as a sporthorse and not much else as a racehorse.

[endlessclimb]

Without the horse doing the job, I’d pass.

There are others.

But if you really really really want this one, go for it! All horses are a risk. I just prefer the “unknown risk”, with a known one on a horse this young, it would be a no from me.

[endlessclimb]

I would like to add that I bought one with KS findings on PPE. But they were much much more mild than what’s seen in these xrays. She’s had her share of health troubles, but to my knowledge her KS is not the cause. In fact, I had her re xrayed last year and we couldn’t even find where the impingement originally was.

[dmveventer]

I think you’re taking a very rosy view of what’s adding up to multiple red flags now. Only 4 starts in 2 years despite bringing in some money suggests to me that there was likely something else going on. The fact that he’s owned by the breeders is a nice story but not really relevelant, just like the fact that he raced successfully is not relevant to whether he’ll hold up as a jumper. If you can honestly say that the risks here are manageable for you then buy the horse, buy don’t make a decision based on only the most generous interpretation of the facts.

The more information you provide the more sure I am that I would pass. There are so many other nice OTTBs out there without these issues. If you decide to move forward I would do so with the assumption that the horse will require extra maintenance at minimum with persistent soundness issues or early retirement as very real possibilities. If you can handle that without completely derailing your financial or riding goals then go for it. If not, keep looking.

[awaywego]

@fivestrideline

Raises hand I have one too! (The same horse I posted above). The tripping used to be only if he missed a farrier appointment. Then it was when he got to the end of a cycle. Now it’s constant despite fanatical attention to his feet and I’m digging deeper.

Mine was diagnosed with stifle arthritis, so I was hopeful when I got his stifles injected around this time last year we would not have as much tripping. No such luck. He also has pedal osteitis - for everyone who believes KS originates in the feet

[clburnham11]

I’m confused. This looks like “touching” to me?

[Tha_Ridge]

@dmveventer

Only 4 starts in 2 years despite bringing in some money suggests to me that there was likely something else going on.

This just isn’t necessarily true, especially for a “backyard-type” horse that is breeder owned. I ended up with one last year who was running in $70k claimers—he could’ve torn up the track in $25k company, but they just didn’t want to let him out of their hands. There’s a lot more nuance to it than just “ran X time in X time period.”

[Xctrygirl]

How many problems are you willing to work with, versus turning down the horses?

Here’s the short list:

Kissing Spine
Navicular changes
DJD
Eye issues
OA in any joint that affects your discipline
Pedal Osteitis
OA in the Cervical Spine
Club foot/feet
Healed fractures
Screws
Healed and rehabbed soft tissue issues

And the list goes on and weird things get added over and over.

Here’s the thing… we all know that you can find a horse that has a more clean vetting than others, but it doesn’t hold that the horse in question will have the brain, desire and dedication to doing the job you want to do. Secondary to that… people who “MUST” have the perfectly vetted horse are not themselves vetted for competency as a trainer/rider. So they can (and have historically) create problems where there were not any before.

If you have the rads that show KS, you have to disclose that. If you choose not to take rads on resale prospects just so you’re in the gray area of “Plausible deniability” that only works so well. Either the horse has KS and things start to unravel, or the horse doesn’t have KS and things start to unravel, or it does have KS and it goes well, or it doesn’t have KS and things are fine. If you’re a fan of 'The Big Bang Theory" this is essentially the Schrödinger’s Cat situation.

More often than not I would recommend neck and back rads in every PPE. Not to kill a sale, but to disclose what you know and let the buyers work with their team to decide what works for them. Ideally you’re taking the rads at a point in time when you also can decide what works for you and pass on anything that you cannot live with.

But I think the trend forward is going to be that the folks that pass on imperfect horses are likely to run into things not current found on PPE’s… as they own the perfect horse but are overall less knowledgeable horsemen who can prevent some of these.

Chips
Stress fractures
DJD
OA
Soft tissues strains, tears.
Navicular changes
Laminitis/founder
and my least favorite thing ever… EDM.

There’s no such thing as a perfect horse and I don’t know how to tell people that enough. I believe you should want to know what’s there and what you can live with, but heart and competency of the horse for the job isn’t measured in a PPE.

My best vetted horse ever died, being hit by lightning in a field after 5 years of ownership having competed at Prelim for 4.5 years, with 2 long format 3 days, and ran point to points (with me) after a bowed tendon (I caused) and had a tooth need to be surgically removed, and had a 12" hole in her inner thigh from being impaled by a deer. She recovered fine.

It’s all a crap shoot.

Em

[Bonnie2]

As one of the old folks who wouldn’t automatically run from the rads, I’d like to add hunters is a better career path than dressage or eventing for a horse that may have back issues. Ideally the horses go softly round and jump from medium spots in a flat ring. They are not asked for collection or drop fences or tight spots or alot of conditioning. Kissing spine was no doubt around in the 70’s and 80’s but the xray equipment couldn’t image that area well. Horsemen had to look at the horse. It’s the glass half full/ half empty question and it is yours to answer.

[Rel6]

I vetted one that sounds similar. 5 y/o OTTB lightly restarted, similar back x-rays but less severe. Lovely canter, lovely jump. I had taken the horse on trial, enjoyed him immensely, and vetted at the end. I really struggled what to do after the back x-rays.

You’ve gotten a lot of good advice, but at the end of the day it comes down to what kind of risk you’re willing to take. My vet told me all the same things people are saying here: on a horse doing the job, this could be an incidental finding; the horse could never have a problem; but also the horse could struggle to do the job I wanted to do as the workload increased. There is no crystal ball, but the x-rays that day created enough uncertainty for me to decide to walk.

I ended up vetting another one a few weeks later whose radiographs came back great, but had two other minor things pop up - because no PPE will be perfect. But they were things both my vet and I felt were very low risk and didn’t make me hesitate.

If I had the ability to retire a horse in my backyard and buy a second one, I would have bought the first one. But I don’t - so it makes my overall risk tolerance for issues on a PPE very low. YMMV.

[hopashore1]

I’ll just add one more thought onto all of the ones already discussed.

It sounds like you want the opportunity this horse presents. That’s not a bad thing. I got mine with known physical issues and he was not yet doing the job I wanted. Many probably would have passed on him as his “own paper” wasn’t great for a long term career. It worked out for us, so I get not walking away. I don’t know if I would in this case either. I almost prefer a known problem to manage than a surprise later on just because I didn’t check everything ahead of time.

I encourage you to think though about what would you do if the horse gets to a point where they can’t do the job you want them to do with their physical issues. Are you okay not progressing up the levels? Switching disciplines? Not competing at all? Not riding at all? What are you okay with and what aren’t you okay with?

Because IF the horse does develop issues related ot the KS (or anything else) and isn’t able to do the job anymore, resale is going to become much harder. Are you willing to do the legwork to change his own career path to something more comfortable? Will you need to sell him? Can you afford to retire him, or make the choice to put him down? How much money per year are you willing (or able) to put into keeping him comfortable?

If you want more than anything to get to the upper levels and will never be happy just hacking around but this horse can’d do the job past Training, where does that leave you? Where does that leave the horse?

[punchy]

@Tha_Ridge

@dmveventer

Only 4 starts in 2 years despite bringing in some money suggests to me that there was likely something else going on.

This just isn’t necessarily true, especially for a “backyard-type” horse that is breeder owned. I ended up with one last year who was running in $70k claimers—he could’ve torn up the track in $25k company, but they just didn’t want to let him out of their hands. There’s a lot more nuance to it than just “ran X time in X time period.”

Seconding this. I’ve always prized training for people who race homebreds for precisely this reason.

[Inimitable]

So here’s the thing about a horse with rads like that, whether he’s asymptomatic now, becomes symptomatic, or never becomes symptomatic: you’ve already complicated your horse ownership journey x10 before he ever walks in the barn. A horse with close/touching spinous processes with evidence of remodeling needs consistent/correct work more than anything to stay sound and comfortable. Young horse pops a splint and needs 8 weeks off? Fine, no big deal - but what will those 8 weeks off do to his back? You get hurt and need some time out of the saddle? You better be paying for training rides to keep him in CORRECT work, else his back reach a tipping point.

My KS horse probably could be a low-level hunter if I continued to pour every cent into him. But even if he was my only horse, the amount of time and energy it takes to keep him going is just not worth it to me. It’s exhausting. And simply not feasible for an amateur with a farm, no help, and other obligations.

Horses are hard enough. KS horses - even the aysmyptomatic ones - can take a heroic level of management that I personally find soul-sucking. YMMV.

[Libby2563]

@hopashore1

I almost prefer a known problem to manage than a surprise later on just because I didn’t check everything ahead of time.

I might be misunderstanding, but that’s a false dichotomy. It’s not like every horse can only have one shortcoming and just because you know the horse has KS, something else can’t also rear its ugly head later. A horse with KS still has all the other latent risks of being a horse. You’re just adding a known risk on top of all those latent risks inherent to every horse. Might turn out in your favor, might not.

[Railbird]

Great points. I deal with this often in my work- you have to compare two real options, not one real option and one you wish was real. In the pool of 5000 dollar OTTBs I’m not as convinced as some other posters that there are many options without some kind of risk, whether that’s a physical issue, temperament, future aptitude for the job, whatever. Comparing experiences of people who had a major issue in a horse that caused them to do diagnostic films years after the fact to the control group of all the people who have no idea what their horses backs look like is probably less useful in this horse population than one where people routinely are doing more imaging.

[RAyers]

@Inimitable

Horses are hard enough. KS horses - even the aysmyptomatic ones - can take a heroic level of management that I personally find soul-sucking. YMMV.

You realize your logic here fails because how do you know symptomatic KS horses need management? One cannot prove a negative. It is like saying that everybody with high blood pressure needs heroic management, except we don’t know that. We only know that there is a fractional risk to other diseases IF and ONLY IF the high blood pressure is detected.

The reality is ALL disease is multifactorial, including equine lameness. Too many are equating the presence of KS as some absolute. It’s no different than saying I saw a blue car at a head on collision and therefore when driving a blue car you should never drive on an undivided highway.

[dmveventer]

Sure, which is why I originally said it COULD be a red flag. But for a horse with questionable scans and no proven ability to stay sound in work it all starts to add up in a not very positive way. Any one of these things on their own wouldn’t necessarily be a deal breaker, but how many red flags is too many? That’s something OP has to decide based on her own risk tolerance.

[rcostantino]

This horse is 5 with only 4 starts, what has he been doing since he stopped racing? I would expect a horse with only 4 starts to be much younger. Have you been able to look at his race record or view any of his race videos? Do you have any contacts at the track that could tell you more about why he was done racing? Sometimes trainers will say the job isn’t right for them, but in reality this is the first sign of something brewing - discomfort.

I’m not telling you don’t buy the horse, but with the ones off the track sometimes you can get more information from their race records and track contacts.