Update - WWYD - PPE findings on young OTTB

[AAHunterGal]

Horse ran 2x as a two year old, owner changed trainers and brought all of his horses with him to the new trainer. Horse didn’t race for the next year, presumably at the new trainer’s direction. Brought the horse out again as a 4yo, raced twice, a 4th and a 1st, and they didn’t level him up in Feb of 2023. He was turned out for a few months and found his first restarter, was with that person for a few month whose husband then needed open heart surgery, so he wound up with the gal I’m purchasing him from in November of 2023. She gave him some time to settle in the new digs after all of the transition and he’s been back in work since late December, she listed him in mid January.

I’ve watched his races/read the reports and nothing strange or dire happened in them. Raced 1x on the dirt, next 3 times on turf.

[hallie2]

from a different perspective entirely: human brains don’t like uncertainty. very uncomfortable. so what do we do- search for an answer. go on google, talk to vets, talk to coth. every expert will tell you something different. The only way to answer your question is to buy the horse and see what happens. You have to assess your risk and uncertainty tolerance and make a decision.

[Inimitable]

@RAyers

You realize your logic here fails because how do you know symptomatic KS horses need management?

Huh? Do you mean asymptomatic KS horses? Nowhere am I trying to prove a negative. OP could buy the horse tomorrow, do nothing out of the ordinary to manage his back, be champion every time out in the adult hunters, and have the horse peacefully pass in a field of daisies 25 years from now. That’s a thing that could happen.

My point is that a finding like this is different from a chip or spur or any other 100 things horses can have on a PPE that there’s really nothing you can do about until they become a problem. Sure, you can always choose not to do anything about it, and you might get lucky. But we know that there are things that we can do to manage the horse’s back to help prevent an incidental finding like this from turning into something.

Like high blood pressure in humans, as you pointed out. Hypothetically, one day I was wasting time at CVS waiting for an unrelated prescription to be filled and took my blood pressure. It was through the roof! Oh no, what to do?! Maybe I’ll ignore it and hope it goes away and I don’t stroke out. Valid. Or maybe I’ll get it checked and do things to manage it, like exercise more and stop smoking. And if I want to be heroic about it I’ll cut out Friday night margaritas with the girls with extra salt while we gossip and slam basket after basket of chips and salsa. Like I said, YMMV.

[Incantation]

I was talking to a friend today. She has a retired SP horse. She bought her years ago without back rads because she was a jumping machine. Friend had a blast jumping her, then took her to a Bruce Davidson x-country clinic, where they had a bad fence & rider fall. Horse tweaked herself over that fence, and started bucking after that. She was finally diagnosed with KS. Injections allowed her to keep riding at a lower level for a number of years until the horse became explosive.
Sometimes all it takes is one tweak and an asymptomatic horse can become symptomatic. Personally, I would not take the risk.

[hopashore1]

I was unclear, as that’s not where I was going in my head. I meant that in any scenario where you buy this horse, I would rather have the rads and know the KS problem than not have the rads and not know the problem. Of course there’s still an infinite number of ways the exact same horse can have a myriad OTHER problems that aren’t picked up because you just didn’t happen to get xrays/diagnostics of that particular joint. OP says if she didn’t already know about the KS she probably would have gone through with the purchase. It’s clear the OP wants to still at least consider going through with the purchase. My point was just that if she decides to, it’s good to have eyes open to be proactive in managing, rather than not knowing until horse is showing more clinical signs.

[Libby2563]

Gotcha!

@hopashore1

My point was just that if she decides to, it’s good to have eyes open to be proactive in managing, rather than not knowing until horse is showing more clinical signs.

Yes, true! Though on the flip side, every time the horse is a little balky or not jumping his best or takes a bad step or whatever, it could add to that little kernel of worry that the management isn’t working and this is the beginning of the end. Which again is just another way of saying to the OP that it really comes down to your risk tolerance.

[tohorse]

Sorry looking at those rads I definitely wouldn’t buy. Have a mare who I also bought because “Fantastic jump!” with much better back rads with 2 affected processes and no changes to the bone at least in the last rads. 3 years later i’ve ridden her for maybe 1 - been 2 splints, front suspensory tear and on her third saddle. Now hanging out in the field rehabbing the suspensory for the last year. I still would’ve bought her with those rads if I knew because they were potentially problematic and looked like something that required mgmt not treatment, but honestly wouldn’t buy a horse with a half iffy back again.

[AAHunterGal]

@tohorse

been 2 splints, front suspensory tear and on her third saddle.

Does the back have anything to do with those other injuries? Those sound unrelated?

[tohorse]

At the beginning I used to think not, but now I honestly think they are related. I think beowulf had some commments about it and that’s been my personal experience. If I had to guess, there are just structural issues in her conformation (likely starting at the hoof - mild NPA, low heels) that leads to the back issues which then makes her more injury prone and anxious (likely because of pain).

To be clear she is rideable (although a very difficult ride that is go-go-go) and doesn’t buck, bolt or rear but whenever I’ve started putting her into serious work she has broken down one way or another. I think if I’m ever going to pull her out of the field I’ll likely just have to accept that she’s gonna be a very difficult pleasure ride that hopefully mellows out with years.

Since I have another one that somehow went from a husband horse status to a pretty promising jumper that also happens to be just an all around fantastic animal it’s easier for me to accept that the KS mare’s career will likely never amount to anything. I have debated putting her down because selling her is just asking for a bad ending given her tough rideability, hate for trails and health issues. But, for now while we can afford it she is just in early retirement at the age of 11.

Also just wanted to add… I’d not underestimate the emotional angst you will put yourself through when your horse is NQR almost all the time. The saddle fit for starters… The difference between a fair fit to a pretty good one on my non-KS horse is barely noticeable - might move and jump a bit better and give a better bend. On that mare it is a difference between a meltdown and an OK ride. Then the back changes and you’re back at square one!

Then the hooves… I had to go barefoot because she stopped growing feet and there was nothing left to nail on. Then we put on casts but she kept pulling those off. So I scrambled to get her boots in the right size. Then the boots started rubbing. So we had to rip off the bandaid and she was hobbling around for 2 months off work until her hooves toughened up. How do you even correct angles on a horse that does not grow feet even when she’s on farrier formula and all the other good stuff? And her feet were not that bad for an OTTB. In short, complete and non stop nightmare!

[Inimitable]

This pretty much mirrors my experience with my KS gelding. It’s just … always something. I get him to a good place and the wheels always come off in some way. Sometimes it’s obviously related to his back, other times it’s something ‘unrelated’ - but is it really? Which then leads to time off, which leads to a weaker topline and core, which leads to more discomfort in the back, which leads to another compensation, which leads to … you get the idea. It can be an absolutely vicious cycle that I would not wish on my worst enemy.

[fivestrideline]

@tohorse

At the beginning I used to think not, but now I honestly think they are related

Yours and mine must be twins!

Front suspensory, chronic battle with hooves that just won’t grow right, picky picky picky about the saddle, stressy/ulcery at the slightest change, retired at age 11. No signs of such issues when I purchased him as a youngster, he’s got good quality feet and used to move and jump quite nice.

I think there’s probably something that ties it all together - some sort of connective tissue or genetic issue that makes them such difficult creatures to manage.

@Inimitable

get him to a good place and the wheels always come off in some way. Sometimes it’s obviously related to his back, other times it’s something ‘unrelated’ - but is it really? Which then leads to time off, which leads to a weaker topline and core, which leads to more discomfort in the back, which leads to another compensation, which leads to …

Yep. And it’s so disheartening because they’re all these random issues - some need time off and rest but that absolutely wrecks the rest of them that needs constant exercise. You start to question every muscle twitch and slight deviation in cadence just walking in from the pasture 🫣. I wouldn’t discount the emotional toll it takes either; it’s honestly enough to drive someone completely out of horses.

[Inimitable]

@fivestrideline

Yours and mine must be twins!

I think we have the first documented case of triplets on our hands. Feet, splint, ulcers … retired at 11. And he’s the best moving and jumping horse in my barn by far. Sigh.

[fivestrideline]

Good gracious, someone call Guinness! lol mine popped some splints too, though they never bothered him.

Misery loves company I guess , I’d not wish the years of stop start riding I’ve had on anyone, but it’s nice to not be alone!

[tohorse]

At the risk of sounding extremely cynical. My mare was a favourite patient of the PE owned vet clinic. They saw her almost monthly for something, sometimes more.

“So sorry she keeps doing this to herself”.

Sure, she could be “managed” but it came at a great financial cost to me/insurance and a lot of mental anguish and non-riding medical visits on my part. At some point after that suspensory I just gave up and turned her out.

Now that she’s out in retirement it’s poof! all issues gone. She had some minor cataracts that don’t affect her vision found while in retirement but otherwise fine. Sound. Not a lame step. Never had a vet call.

[AAHunterGal]

@Obsidian_Fire

I have an OTTB mare, vetted clean clean clean. I’ve had her 6 years. I had one decent year on her, and after that it all went to hell.

But if your mare vetted clean clean clean, then how does this apply to me? Folks are telling me to find a horse who will vet clean as well. Yours then went downhill after the fact, which is more arguing the point that horses are horses and anything can happen / there are no guarantees from a clean vetting alone…

[Obsidian_Fire]

@AAHunterGal

But if your mare vetted clean clean clean, then how does this apply to me? Folks are telling me to find a horse who will vet clean as well. Yours then went downhill after the fact, which is more arguing the point that horses are horses and anything can happen / there are no guarantees from a clean vetting alone…

Because if I had known then what I know now, I would tell you her conformation led her to this place. Because you are looking at something that already has a finding - and who knows where it might lead?
Because you don’t know what you don’t know - and you won’t know it until you fall face first into it.

Mostly, just sharing my experience, my heartbreak. Like everyone has said, it’s up to your tolerance for the risk you are taking if you buy this horse.
It’s just my story, that is all.

You buy whatever you want, bottom line. But your thread is WWYD - what would you do. That means people who answer are going to share their personal stories.
But if you buy a known issue and it doesn’t work out? You were warned.

[millerra]

Just an FYI - and knocking on wood very hard here. I bought the horse with the x-rays - worse than yours. The pre-purchase vet was very non-committal about it causing a problem. And not sorry (yet)…

Why? Because I have another horse w/ worse back X-rays that we found after the fact (before folks were x-raying backs), and w/ management, he is the bees knees.

So, contrary to lots of advice here, I actually bought the horse.

[Inimitable]

For what it’s worth, my advice is not to ONLY buy a horse that vets CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. It’s to not buy a horse with this very specific finding.

I don’t even PPE anymore. Mine are all presumably full of chips and spurs and god only knows what else. I manage them as necessary for their jobs. But I would not willingly walk into another situation where I might potentially be managing another KS case - now or in the future.

[Xctrygirl]

@Inimitable

I don’t even PPE anymore. Mine are all presumably full of chips and spurs and god only knows what else. I manage them as necessary for their jobs. But I would not willingly walk into another situation where I might potentially be managing another KS case - now or in the future.

Ok so I may be stupid…but yours also could have KS…if I am reading that you don’t do PPE’s anymore.

Em

[kg8185]

I think this depends on what you’re willing to invest in. I don’t think KS is a debilitating, career-ending issue anymore, and like others said, ride the horse and not the x-rays. If the horse can do what you want to do comfortably with or without maintenance, that’s something to consider. If it’s to the point where surgery might be an option, I’d see if they’d be willing to do the surgery before selling (if you are okay with rehabbing knowing the horse could come back to what it was/what you’d want to do) or discount the horses price due to the vetting in order for you to be able to do the surgery in the future if needed.