UPDATED! What do we chalk up to “green behavior” and what do we seriously investigate?

[candyappy]

@spurofthemoment

I guess my question is, how do we classify green behavior versus behavior that’s a reaction to pain? What indicators have you used to decide that what’s going on is due to lack of experience and not pain?

I believe it is always good to investigate if there is pain that is causing the issue BUT when the horse is young and green they can be quite good at suddenly not wanting to do what we ask when the work gets difficult , just because they can.

Pain is fairly consistent in that an ill fitting saddle or back pain doesn’t just come and go. I have heard that if a horse has ulcers the reactions under saddle or to touch/ brushing also is consistent.

Willful disrespect of what you are asking can disappear quite quickly when you call their bluff and ride them through it.

@fivestrideline

He is heading into his Terrible Fives year, though, so don’t baby him too much while you work on his body. Get him comfy and then remind him he’s got to work for a living

I thought it was terrible 4’s?? There is a terrible 5’s too

[fivestrideline]

@candyappy

I thought it was terrible 4’s?? There is a terrible 5’s too

Some of them have Terrible 4-6s and then they turn 7 and a light bulb comes on upstairs and you have an ENTIRELY different horse.

One just hopes you LIKE said new horse

[candyappy]

@fivestrideline

Some of them have Terrible 4-6s and then they turn 7 and a light bulb comes on upstairs and you have an ENTIRELY different horse.

Good grief. We have just gone through the 4’s and I haven’t done anything but wet him down for 2 weeks due to the oppressive heat wave. I was hoping they would pass since he turned 5 around now and now it could be years…

[173north]

@outside_leg

I’ve worked primarily with young horses. Green behavior for a comfortable horse typically comes when you introduce something new and they don’t understand it. When a horse starts acting up doing something it was previously good at, that’s when you start looking for something physical. It could be as simple as muscle fatigue (think about how you feel after a tough workout at the gym). Young horses are still developing and growing. Bodywork, changing what you work on day to day, and taking a day or two off a week are all important to keeping them physically happy. If you do all that and the bad behavior is still there, I’d be looking for other physical causes.

I agree with this. If we’re working on something new and they pull a silly move once or twice, I note it and move on. If the behavior begins to repeat, I start to think about pain, ulcers, saddle fit, ouchy feet, body soreness, etc. Regressing a bit in training and struggling with something that was once easy, or at least solid, is another sign something physical is going on.

I’d also highly suggest sticking them often, especially at 4 and 5. Those baby phases where they plateau or everything suddenly seems a little bit harder for them often correlate with a growth spurt.

[dr5627]

This is somewhat reassuring to me as I struggle with this question in my 5 year old. Everyone tells me he’s just going through the terrible 5s but suddenly he decided he doesn’t want to canter at all or trot bigger than a western jog, threatening to rear if pushed even on the lunge. Have an appointment with the vet…

[spurofthemoment]

@dr5627

This is somewhat reassuring to me as I struggle with this question in my 5 year old

I’m glad I’m not the only one! I hope you find a solution soon!

[Tha_Ridge]

@fivestrideline

Ding ding! Start with the saddle fitter and this. Front foot pain could certainly contribute to this behavior. That and stifles or SI, and drilling too much.

Back foot pain too. NPA behind can cause back pain almost immediately. Shoot some foot rads, OP. They’re cheap and will give you the best starting point.

[floppyammy]

@spurofthemoment

I guess my question is, how do we classify green behavior versus behavior that’s a reaction to pain? What indicators have you used to decide that what’s going on is due to lack of experience and not pain?

The benchmark I use to differentiate pain behavior from training issue is: if it is something that the horse normally does quietly and calmly, then starts to becomes an issue, I start to look for pain. For instance, last year my five year old was quietly and calmly going w/t/c and starting to canter courses up to 2’3" with simple changes. He was doing that easily and willingly. Until he wasn’t. He started becoming spooky around the ring when flatting and started running out at fences. I had a few people tell me it was a training issue, that he was just going through the terrible 5’s and pushing boundaries. But his demeanor and behavior were such a departure from his norm, and all other factors had remained the same - same amount of turnout, same facility, same feeding program, same level of training. And his behavior wasn’t a horse that was frustrated learning something new, nor was it that he was feeling good and being fresh. He was anxious and unhappy. In his case, it was the trifecta of Lyme disease, poor saddle fit and Grade 3/4 ulcers.

I would say if you are noticing declining performance from your horse, and he was otherwise performing at that level comfortably and capably, it may be worth considering pain related behavior.

[vxf111]

I have a wonderful horse who at ages 3 and 4 was the most tractable and easy animal on the planet. Then he turned 5 and was a raging lunatic for a year. At 6 was a baby green horse. At 7 he was a horse.

Once a year, usually in august, he would explode in a bucking fit out of nowhere and dump every rider who rode him for a week or so. Flatting, jumping, you name it. That week, everyone ate dirt. Violent fits. And then they were over like they never happened.

This happened from age 3-11. And then at 11 he suddenly started stopping at jumps which was new for him. He had a full work up and that’s when we discovered the kissing spine and the accompanying soft tissue injuries in both front feet.

This horse was so stoic and kind, he would literally go until he couldn’t and then explode. He showed all summer and by the end of august it was more than he could take.

I tell this story to say a couple things—- if you suspect it’s physical, get it checked. What’s the harm? If the vet check is clean that’s a helpful data point. I don’t think even green babies explode, truly explode, out of just freshness. Exploding and carrying on is more energy than working and a sign of resistance that often reflects some physical pain. A little play is not the same as a full on hard bucking spree.

If it comes out of nowhere and doesn’t seem to be prompted by inexperience, suspect a physical component. A horse that is fresh after seeing something for the first time, that seems green to me. A horse that has done the thing several times and then suddenly has a significant reaction to doing the same thing seems more physical to me.

And, check the feet and back. These are places where pain doesn’t always show as “lameness.” Especially bilateral foot pain can be hard to spot.

FWIW my horse had the happiest of endings. I did the ligament snipping surgery, rested him, restarted him slow, and he’s better than ever and has been going for years since then. He does an easier job now than he used to but he’s also older and he’s packing my sorry ass around (for which he deserves a medal) and I don’t care to jump the height he used to. But he’s totally sound and happy and useful. I wish I had picked up on what he was trying to tell me sooner

[Atlas_Shrugged]

Got to have faith- Back to the drawing board- and yes, the feeling when the “click” is heavenly-

[mmeqcenter]

@spurofthemoment

Now, I also know that horses aren’t vindictive - they do not act out for “no reason.” So this somewhat contradicts the whole “well he’s just a baby” thing

Not really. Horses don’t act out for “no reason,” but that doesn’t mean the only viable “reason” can ever be pain. Being a baby is a perfectly fair reason, considering they’re doing a whole lot of learning and their brain is developing. “Baby brain” is often just frustration. Frustration at not understanding what is being asked, not wanting to do what is asked, thinking they aren’t capable of doing what is asked, etc. Or it can be that they’re distracted, or anxious, or in pain.

The specific behaviors described by the OP do sound like anxiety that may or may not be caused by pain. To start I’d have a vet do a chiropractic adjustment and overall evaluation, check feet and saddle fit, and treat for ulcers.

[spurofthemoment]

@mmeqcenter

Being a baby is a perfectly fair reason, considering they’re doing a whole lot of learning and their brain is developing. “Baby brain” is often just frustration. Frustration at not understanding what is being asked, not wanting to do what is asked, thinking they aren’t capable of doing what is asked, etc. Or it can be that they’re distracted, or anxious, or in pain.

Thanks for this comment!

While I will get the vet involved, his worst outburst yet happened while other horses on the property were being turned out and he could see outside the ring. That’s not to say he also hasn’t let let out a crow hop or a buck before in a different, more ideal circumstance, but this particular outburst really got my attention and I started thinking about the past times he has done it on a smaller scale. Tiny trot jumps are fine, but when I start asking more of him, that’s when we become a little unhinged - which had me asking the question is it just being green or is it a pain response and how do I know?

[VodkaRedbullx2]

I think the posts above have really good advice. 3 is always easier than 4, they are naive little angels at 3. 4 you have to get control of things like the neck and the feet or they start using it against you. They will become heathens by 5 if you dont get those pieces at 4, return to boot camp at 6, and get a brain again at 7. Saints by 10.

When my youngsters are naughty i might ride a little less that week if they are going through a growth spurt…sometimes they just cant coordinate because they grew. Sometimes they just need 3 days a week for a few weeks.

And when they are naughty i go back to the lunge line or in hand work teaching them to think. So i will lunge until i have their ears dropped below their withers and the base of the neck is relaxed with a loose side rein and be asking for bend and releasing.

If he is bucking on the other side of a fence sounds like he needs to review his abcs on how to rebalance. Can he turn a corner of a square to a halt without pulling? Can he reinback from the ground? Under saddle? How is his turn on the haunches? Can you canter a corner to a walk transition?

At 4 he can start finding his hind legs.

Sometimes you have to break things down to smaller bite sized pieces and review the basics again and again with 4 year old boy horses.

Like i have a 7 year old mare and a 7 year old gelding and when theyvwere 4 i could pop a chamhe on the mare and could barely leg yield the gelding.

Make it really easy and repetive. And add cookies so it becomes fun again. And of course shoes saddle fit and a back xray like you are doing.

[mmeqcenter]

@spurofthemoment

Tiny trot jumps are fine, but when I start asking more of him, that’s when we become a little unhinged - which had me asking the question is it just being green or is it a pain response and how do I know?

Certainly investigate typical pain issues first. But it sounds a bit like he is overfaced by more than tiny trot jumps right now, so I’d take it nice and slow once pain is ruled out.

[Showbizz]

Having done this before, don’t give time off before the vet. Otherwise the vet is less likely to find what you’re looking for. Keep going until that appointment - modify some if needed. We’ve had too many we’ve pulled out of the program until the vetting that vet “fine”. We put them back to work and the problem comes back.

[danhelm441]

Yikes, is it common to start injections that early? My green horse came up head-bobbing lame for about a week and my vet highly discouraged even considering injections. My trainer was actually suggesting it at the time and the vet was quick to disabuse her of that notion.

[fivestrideline]

Probably steroid vs non-steroid options. The steroid injections (which are the ‘original’ joint injections) degrade the joint over time, the non-steroidal injections knock down the inflammation.

It’s common these days to do a non-steroidal injection once at the beginning of rehab to hopefully break the pain cycle enough to let the horse use itself correctly and build new muscle vs compensating.

[AmmyHour926]

@mmeqcenter

Horses don’t act out for “no reason,” but that doesn’t mean the only viable “reason” can ever be pain. Being a baby is a perfectly fair reason, considering they’re doing a whole lot of learning and their brain is developing. “Baby brain” is often just frustration. Frustration at not understanding what is being asked, not wanting to do what is asked, thinking they aren’t capable of doing what is asked, etc. Or it can be that they’re distracted, or anxious, or in pain.

This. something can be hard or difficult or even cause discomfort, but not mean pain!

[IPEsq]

It’s really only Depo Medrol that can degrade the articular surface over time. There are other steroids that do not have that side effect that can work perfectly well for high motion joints. That said, the SI is not a high motion joint so Depo Medrol is sometimes used there as it’s pretty powerful, and some of the steroid (usually diluted in saline) is commonly injected into the muscle on the way out with the needle, to get a more diffuse anti-inflammatory effect for the area.

Some non-steroid substances like Pro Stride and others are also used in the SI area, but less commonly because the volume is very small for those injections (and would not also treat surrounding muscle), and if your horse has a flare reaction, it’s not possible to flush the joint like you might be able to do fairly easily with an adverse reaction in a hock, for example.

[fivestrideline]

Well I learned something today!

I’m debating getting my horse’s SI done, so I’m interested to hear what OP’s experience is, as well as what they used (if willing to share, of course).