UPDATED! What do we chalk up to “green behavior” and what do we seriously investigate?

[spurofthemoment]

UPDATE: Vet came out for routine visit and asked about how he was going under saddle while palpating. Vet noticed hock soreness, and I said that he’s been explosive after jumps or after a flying lead change (and he’s been sticky picking up the left lead but that honestly might be a me problem since to perfect his right lead, I had to over-cue, and now I’m a bit wonky myself). I’m thinking it has to do with the weight he’s put on and maybe some growth in his body. Baby horse is going to get some time off and a reduction in workload for a little while. Does anyone have any experience with the Back on Track/SmartPak hock wraps? I’d love to give him some relief if I could without turning to an NSAID.

Despite having 20-ish years of horse experience, I am just now bringing along my first green horse. While I have taken horses to first shows/put them through other first experiences (i.e. transforming a horse training 3rd level dressage to a hunter), my current horse is my first ever true green horse.

I could brag all day about his great brain and personality. Most of our rides are pretty phenomenal and he soaks up knowledge like a sponge (you should see how great he is at transitions in just a few months!). But, when he does something that’s not desirable, I get told “oh well that’s okay, it’s just green horse behavior!”

Now, I also know that horses aren’t vindictive - they do not act out for “no reason.” So this somewhat contradicts the whole “well he’s just a baby” thing. So, when he does have the occasional outburst, while onlookers and my trainer say “he’s green, ride through it,” I am worried that he’s actually in pain and I need to do something to help him.

I guess my question is, how do we classify green behavior versus behavior that’s a reaction to pain? What indicators have you used to decide that what’s going on is due to lack of experience and not pain?

Some more context in case you’re able to offer specific advice: when I first got the baby (he’s a 4-year-old OTTB), he was going very quietly over small fences. It’s been about 6 months, and he gets ridden 3-5 times a week and only jumps once per week. All other rides consist of lateral work, work on transitions, work over poles, and rides out on hilly terrain. He’s a quiet horse in general and very responsive to use of seat and “whoa.” Lately, though, he’s been very strong to jumps at the canter, especially on the back end or in between lines. Sometimes he will reach down and buck pretty substantially. It happens in about 8 strides or less, and then he immediately comes back down. He will then go on to happily trot a small jump, halt, trot off, etc., like it didn’t even happen. He will also sometimes buck when asked for a lead change on the flat, or when I put my outside leg on him to make a turn at the canter. Since I have gotten him, he has gained some weight and improved his balance (he used to trip quite a bit). My course of action is to have a saddle fitter out first, then look into sources of pain starting with his feet (his x-rays on his PPE showed thin soles) and moving to gastro. As I continue to work him, I will focus our rides around pole work and consistent rhythm.

[fivestrideline]

He’s gotten fitter, is being asked to do things in a way that’s a little more work, and is getting into his “But Why?” stage. It’s not unusual to get some spiciness when they’re having fun or confused or just plain fresh!

That said, checking feed, feet, and saddle fit is a good place to start while you work through it. Don’t baby him about the bucking, though, shut that down NOW. Pain or not, bucking is not an option.

I’d trust your trainers, assuming you value their input and you’re using someone who has produced young horses (and that you like the way those horses turned out).

Just make sure your tack fits and he’s getting turnout and appropriate feed while you’re at it. That 5 year old year is ROUGH sometimes.

[spurofthemoment]

Thank you for this!!

I’m okay with him being fresh/spicy. I never feel “unsafe” or scared of him - mostly because he typically will put his head on straight immediately after having a moment.

[Atlas_Shrugged]

Oh sister, I so get it! I have a 4yo wb gelding that I first backed a year ago after he was delivered to me. Some days I feel as if he was easier at 3 than he is at 4, despite riding him lightly several days per week for a year. I did have his canines brought through by the vet, and bought him a new saddle. He has been treated for Lyme and EPM, as all horses in CT seem to have been exposed to both (he came from KY). He is beautiful and kind but inconsistent. He does seem to like and benefit from being ridden regularly, though not drilled. I ride him indoors, then out in a field, then back and forth til he settles. This has worked well with the other young horses I have brought along. I don’t get emotional when I ride him, and do give lots of praise. But some days … The best thing for me is to ride my other broke horses so that I don’t start questioning my abilities. I find that helps me a lot. Or sometimes I do two short rides a day if the first ride didn’t go as hoped. Hang in there and let us know how it’s going

[Pokerface]

So as someone who has ONLY ever brought along horses from scratch, the answer is: it depends . The only way to know if his behaviors are pain related would be to have a vet go over him. When you are starting them from nothing, you have to strongly evaluate what your horses patterns are, his strengths and weaknesses, and how that might play out in a young horse. Going from jumping small courses quietly to now pulling and bucking can be a lot of things. Most horses will do stuff pretty willingly the first few times because they haven’t formed an opinion about it yet. He may be realizing that what you are asking him is HARD WORK, he may just have figured out that he can have an opinion about things. He could be protesting the way you ride. He could also just need a break and have a few weeks/months of just light hacks, he might feel a bit over loaded.

My own youngster is about as much of an over-thinker as a horse can be. He is incredibly athletic and has talent out the wazoo, but I’ve had to take things very slow with him and we’ve had plenty of breaks where he just needed to do something else for a while before returning to a challenging task. He literally spent his first 8-10 months under saddle only picking up the right lead. He was perfectly capable of cantering on the left lead, but he struggled with understanding how to pick it up under saddle. He could sometimes canter on the left lead on the lunge, he could land the left lead after a jump, and my vet went over him and declared him perfectly sound/comfortable. He was just weak and uncertain. So, we would work on it for a bit, then ignore it for a bit, and then circle back around in a different way, and we just kept up that cycle until one day it just “clicked”. Even after he “got” it, there would be days where it was again a foreign concept. He’s been jumping 3’ courses and has jumped 3’6 singles and oxers. Lately? He’s decided he MUST barrel down lines of canter poles. Why dude? WHY?

The slower you go and the more deliberate you are with what you do with him (choosing exercises and activities based on where he is with his training and what he can do consistently)- the better you will get at evaluating what is pain and what is behavioral. I once told a friend that bringing along young horses is like doing a 2,000 piece puzzle, but you don’t have a picture of what the puzzle is supposed to look like lol.

[2DogsFarm]

OP:
I’ll ask if - as an OTTB - he was raced at all.
There’s a big difference in an unstarted U/S 4yo & one with a background of Race Training.
If he was raced, he’s had a pretty good routine installed from the time he was a long yearling up until he came off the track.
& You’re changing that routine radically.
Despite whoever had him before you getting him going “Hunterly”.
Add (as others said) being 4 w/babybrain & if you rule out any physical cause, you might just have the equine version of Terrible Twos to get through.

[spurofthemoment]

@Pokerface

The slower you go and the more deliberate you are with what you do with him (choosing exercises and activities based on where he is with his training and what he can do consistently)- the better you will get at evaluating what is pain and what is behavioral.

Thank you for this!!

[spurofthemoment]

@2DogsFarm

I’ll ask if - as an OTTB - he was raced at all.
There’s a big difference in an unstarted U/S 4yo & one with a background of Race Training.

He was raced - 5 times, finally broke his maiden on the 5th try and was retired. He spent a few months being let down and re-started. That trainer had him doing essentially what I am doing now (w/t/c with a lead change that needs finishing and coursing small jumps) - that’s not to say that he hasn’t progressed, but I don’t think he should do anything more given his age and experience level.

[outside_leg]

Do you have back x-rays on him? Red flags for me are the bucking after the jump and then going back to normal. I’ve seen a lot of TBs with kissing spine these days. While some may be mild, some can cause severe pain. So it’s worth looking into IME.

To the larger question: I’ve worked primarily with young horses. Green behavior for a comfortable horse typically comes when you introduce something new and they don’t understand it. When a horse starts acting up doing something it was previously good at, that’s when you start looking for something physical. It could be as simple as muscle fatigue (think about how you feel after a tough workout at the gym). Young horses are still developing and growing. Bodywork, changing what you work on day to day, and taking a day or two off a week are all important to keeping them physically happy. If you do all that and the bad behavior is still there, I’d be looking for other physical causes.

[spurofthemoment]

@outside_leg

I’ve seen a lot of TBs with kissing spine these days. While some may be mild, some can cause severe pain. So it’s worth looking into IME.

No back x-rays - will probably invest in a set of radiographs when the vet comes out for fall shots. I’m seeing a saddle fitter tomorrow.

I was somewhat waiting to hear this answer, actually - my previous lease horse had kissing spine so bad that he was still bucking even after injections, at which point it was decided he needed a different job and I bought my horse. He had other signs, too.

Previous lease horse is owned by current trainer. I like the current trainer, but someone else mentioned “keep listening if you like how their young horses turned out.” I don’t necessarily dislike any of their horses, but there are some things about them that I personally do not want for my own. This bucking stuff is one of them.

[spurofthemoment]

@outside_leg

Bodywork, changing what you work on day to day, and taking a day or two off a week are all important to keeping them physically happy.

Also - any recommendations (books, courses, videos?) on where to start with bodywork? I have no problem hiring a message therapist, but I’m also heavily interested in learning how to properly care for my horse’s muscles myself.

[danhelm441]

People talk about how vigilant you have to be for lameness or discomfort because of how stoic horses can be about pain. But tbh when you watch green horses being schooled, you kind of realize that stoicism is a learned behavior. It’s also a pretty essential behavior to train, because horses have to learn they can’t just launch their riders when they aren’t feeling 100%. So to answer your question, I would say you have to accept that it may always be a little bit of both. It’s important to be proactive about saddle fit, teeth, feet, etc, but it’s just as important to keep your expectations high and shut down bad behaviors right away.

I also wish it could be as simple as saying “rule out pain first,” but the reality is you may never be sure that pain isn’t a factor. You can search and search and never get a definitive answer, or you may find something incidental that might be the cause or might not. I think you just have to do the best you can to look after your horse’s health and soundness, but also remember that if you treat them like they are made of glass, they will start to act that way. Learning a little toughness and resilience is an important lesson that will serve your young horse for the rest of his life.

[spurofthemoment]

@danhelm441

I also wish it could be as simple as saying “rule out pain first,” but the reality is you may never be sure that pain isn’t a factor. You can search and search and never get a definitive answer, or you may find something incidental that might be the cause or might not.

A riding friend was talking to me about exactly this, sharing how they feel like they have done everything they could to address their horse’s issues, but are still in an endless search for answers.

I often have to remind myself that horses are the original all terrain vehicles. Yes, we ask unnatural things of them, but they are a lot heartier than we give them credit for. This is exactly why I’m having this conundrum lol.

[Cowboy_Girl]

He’s going through a “teen-ager top jock phase.” He’s a young adult, that is healthy, fit and getting stronger (and more confident in himself and his body,) every day.
OTTBs may start their new careers as generally quiet…until they get some fitness and strength. Some do have a personality change and can start to take over/I got this already, combined with ah this work is a little too hard today/screw it attitude.
It is a phase of green-ness that can be a real pain (literally sometimes) but exciting too because this is where the sun beams of talent can really shine through.
Their back and withers can also change shape rapidly with the muscle changes/development of the back, so you may need to get expert with saddle pad thicknesses, pommel pads and half pads for a little while.
Get what ever help you need to make sure you and he get through this safely. And work on your personal physical fitness too.

[fivestrideline]

@spurofthemoment

Previous lease horse is owned by current trainer. I like the current trainer, but someone else mentioned “keep listening if you like how their young horses turned out.” I don’t necessarily dislike any of their horses, but there are some things about them that I personally do not want for my own. This bucking stuff is one of them.

That was me - care to elaborate on this?

Are there a lot of buckers in this program? Does the trainer have mostly hot, high performance type horses in their program, or are they ammy horses that are doing this?

[IPEsq]

This kind of behavior after jumps or during lead changes make me first think discomfort (top contenders being front feet, stifles, or back). Second reason is anxiety. Which can of course be related to a pain response. But can also come on from getting the horse a little mentally fried about something he finds difficult (common with the changes, for example). Or in lines for a more hot blooded type or one that’s got a draw to the barn or something.

Baby behavior would be something like, you really messed up the distance like gunned it for a long one or you miss and he has an hard rub and he plays a bit on the backside. Or maybe someone in the ring got too close and baby horse reacted to the traffic. Playing can be a little head shake to something more wild. Ones sensitive to this need more accuracy until they build confidence and strength and can become tolerant of amateur mistakes. Some are never that tolerant.

So the question is, does this feel like an anxiety problem? Even if short lived or triggered only in certain scenarios? What is common about them in terms of training or how the horse moves his body? Does it escalate or can it be diffused? The answers to these will make me lean towards pain, training problem, or experience being the root of it.

[spurofthemoment]

Not many buckers, not many hot horses. Some just have quirks that I wouldn’t be able to live with. Example: can’t pick up a lead/needs to do a flying lead change to get the correct lead one direction. I will also express that the trainer has done everything they can medically to try and resolve all these things. They really invest in their horses and care for them all deeply. They invest in maintenance and special shoeing. They even have horses that they do not use in their program/are not a fit/that do not get ridden at all because they feel that if they tried to sell, they would end up in a bad situation.

The ones with non-dangerous quirks that keep them out of the ribbons tend to appear comfortable. They just have habits or are a type of ride that I would like to avoid for my own horse, and I want to be taught how to address these things should they come up properly.

Former lease horse has not been ridden in months.

[spurofthemoment]

@IPEsq

Baby behavior would be something like, you really messed up the distance like gunned it for a long one or you miss and he has an hard rub and he plays a bit on the backside. Or maybe someone in the ring got too close and baby horse reacted to the traffic. Playing can be a little head shake to something more wild. Ones sensitive to this need more accuracy until they build confidence and strength and can become tolerant of amateur mistakes. Some are never that tolerant.

So he is really tolerant of my mistakes. I almost wonder if I’m accidentally revving him up sometimes, but it doesn’t feel like it.

He has shown a little reaction to being passed by a horse going the opposite direction.

I do want to say, at one of our best shows, he had his feet done just the day before. His outbursts lately have been worse, and he is due to have his feet done.

[Pokerface]

@spurofthemoment

I do want to say, at one of our best shows, he had his feet done just the day before. His outbursts lately have been worse, and he is due to have his feet done.

That sounds like a pattern and a good place to start.

[fivestrideline]

@spurofthemoment

I do want to say, at one of our best shows, he had his feet done just the day before. His outbursts lately have been worse, and he is due to have his feet done.

Ding ding! Start with the saddle fitter and this. Front foot pain could certainly contribute to this behavior. That and stifles or SI, and drilling too much.

If his feet are off, that can cause stifle and SI pain too.

He is heading into his Terrible Fives year, though, so don’t baby him too much while you work on his body. Get him comfy and then remind him he’s got to work for a living