Upper Levels - TBs?

[QUOTE=MyReality;3069185]
I have one thing ‘bad’ to say about TB, if we truly believe in TB in dressage all the way to the top, we need more breeding effort in refining the breed for dressage…[/QUOTE]

This is interesting, I always look at dressage as more training than gaited classes. The TB has the try and the athleticism, although as in any breed the good ones have to love their job. So for me, I rather like the training aspects and CORRECT movement.

I’ll agree, that is not the way the dressage trend seems to be headed… but I would only want to breed for correct movement and not a gaited horse. I’d hate to screw up that fantastic canter for an auction trot, and I agree the post who said it’s like riding butter or yogurt. Quite frankly, I like the TBs gaits just as they are.

I think if you’re looking for a dressage TB, one could ask around with trainers and see who wants to do flat work and who wants to jump rather than try to pick one out from scratch.

I love this thread! I have to tell of my TB … So, I signed up for a clinic with a very well respected “S” judge last summer. As an eventer, I thought I’d get some help in my dressage. I was warming up in the arena as she was finishing up with her last lesson and then when she was done I went and stood in the center to start our lesson. She walked over and asked what breed my horse was. I said TB, and she said that he was very well proportioned and put together and that he was “really, really nice”. I hadn’t even introduced myself! She asked if he was Maine-bred, which I giggle to today, and said no he’s off the track. She was very baffled and asked where I got him and what his breeding was. My goodness, the whole lesson she just remarked how nice my little TB was! He’s 15.2 hands and 4 years old, at the time. She said that he’d be competitive against any horse and that she hoped to see me at the Regionals! I was so proud and amazed, I did NOT expect to come out of that lesson with so much new information about my boy. She also thought that he’d do well in FEI freestyles! I’ve competed a little bit at 3rd level with a draft cross who doesn’t have the best gaits but who I’ve worked my heart out to get there. And now my new horse has all this raw potential! Holy moly! :eek:

So, all in all, this judge thought very highly of my OTTB and thought as a 4 yr old that he would be able to climb the levels very successfully. Choose your TB wisely and I think the same can be said of others!

Here is his pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/houston+tex

I have seen two half brothers by the same stallion at the track I got mine from. A very nice chestnut gelding who I was SO tempted to get (Silly Savage). Anyways, enough of my ramblings, but I love my OTTB and he is so very talented. It continually amazes me.

sm, I do not mean one bit we breed more ‘gait’ into TB. TB is correct as is… I find them more correct than many modern day wb.

I mean breeding as in, for instance more uphill, for instance less straight shoulder, coupled with slightly higher set neck (not to achieve frame but help in collection), for instance for me personally a little less leggy, a little more bone more girth… things that are harder to find in the OTTB pool but could help the breed be more capable with the work and stay sound.

I disagree that dressage is purely about training. If you do believe in this concept (and there is nothing wrong in believing it IMO so don’t get me wrong), you need to be a very patient and very disciplined horseman who is extremely in tune with your horse’s every feeling and response. The fact is, we often do not know about the injury until it is too late.

I want to say this because I saw a very respected leg specialist yesterday. My horse has a minor issue and was corrected by some adjustment. But the same cannot be said for another horse. That horse is a lovely girl and score very well in shows (training level, schooling first). But the owner is noticing NQR with her. The vet noticed the horse is in a lot of pain (we were aware that she is in some pain but we could not imagine it is that bad). The vet chooses not to treat her, because he believes her problem comes form incorrect conformation for dressage (stifle too straight), and continuing the training will undo his treatment… the key is to not work her in dressage.

He recommends slow steady work, harder ground, straight lines, no circles. aka trail ride… at least for now.

No matter how elementary your dressage is, when your horse has mastered the training level stuff, you WILL be very tempted to ask a little more round, a little more sit, more straight, ask for more correct transition. It is a natural progression for dressage… the sports does not say, once you have done training, then go back to intro.

Low level stuff could still be too much for some horses. My friend did a great job noticing his mare is NQR, some people don’t even notice.

I hope people who know me doesn’t think I am just gossiping about or putting down a horse. but it is a great lesson I learned, how important it is, to have a horse that can do the work. I am not talking about a perfectly matched conformation… I am saying breeding one that can help a horse as much as possible in a discipline. (and modern day WB is not necessarily helping, many would argue) I have an old friend who said “any horse can jump 3 feet from a standstill”. Yeah right.

<shhhhhhhhhhh> Lean in>>>> Most of those hot warmbloods are 80% or more TB, now don’t let on you know this. Keep it quiet!

[QUOTE=MyReality;3069435]
sm, I do not mean one bit we breed more ‘gait’ into TB. TB is correct as is… I find them more correct than many modern day wb.

I mean breeding as in, for instance more uphill, for instance less straight shoulder, coupled with slightly higher set neck (not to achieve frame but help in collection), for instance for me personally a little less leggy, a little more bone more girth… things that are harder to find in the OTTB pool but could help the breed be more capable with the work and stay sound.[/QUOTE]

Okay, that’s the party line on why to buy a WB over any breed. I would argue a larger bone does not mean more sound: translate that into human terms, is a wirey marathon runner less sound than someone with a football linebacker build?

And are you saying WBs are sound at GP? Sound at Third? We all know many are not.

My little GP guy is built like many TBs out there and he is perfectly 100% sound, he MOVES balanced and correct. He doesn’t need hock injections,while I know many large-boned uphill WBs just getting out of second level that do. He gets cosequin as a preventative, end of story.

So it’s fine to subscribe to the WB theory on what a dressage horse needs to be conformationally: live and let live. I just figure when upper level WBs are sound, don’t need hock injections en masse… well, let me and my boy know.

I just started part-leasing a TB who has showed through I-1, and brought his owner’s daughter from TL to high 70’s at 4th Level and doing extremely well in YR a couple of years ago. :smiley: He’s older now, so I don’t expect to get that far with him, but I’m looking forward to learning from him!

Why do you think I am critical of TB, or I subscribe to this idea WB is better?

Totally not what I have in mind. Please don’t get your inferior complex get in the way of understanding my post.

All I am saying is, I want to buy a TB for dressage, then I should be able go to a TB breeder specialised in dressage. I don’t want a WB, I don’t want a WB look-alike. I just like some refinement, in the long run. If it means they turn out looking more like a WB, be it. WB already has a lot of TB, so what? Why pick on what I want to see in a breed for a discipline, and superimpose that on my supposed advocation for WB? I am not even familiar with what WB calls for in breeding.

My TB is a great boy. But he does have a straighter shoulder and lower set neck. It does make collection that much harder for him to understand. My next TB, I definitely will look for one that has a more slopey shoulder.

I am not saying WB is more sound. I AM saying horses with thicker bone tend to be more structurally suited to a deeper girth body, and heavy lifting type of work. This is not a biased opinion. It is not a WB influenced observation.

Why? Because I really have the experience. I had a small QH and I used him in hunter and later dressage. Mysterious lameness. 3 vets later trailer him to leg specialist (which should be the first thing I did, now I know, another lesson learned). Turned out he has some form of navicular change. The vet said he is too fine boned to withstand his own round, muscular body type (he has a QH body but small feet, fine legs) and hence make him prone to injury, and early change.

Slender built TB, matching fine bone is fine. But if I do want to see deeper girth/wider built, we will not want fine bone. Understand?

And why do I like deeper girth/wider build? A lot of TB has good heart girth. So it’s not about that. I just find in dressage, I want more horse to sit on, that’s all… and something to fill my legs more. Rider’s comfort more than anything else. Perhaps a common preference among dressage riders… but I don’t think it affect performance per se in my experience.

Glitter Please I believe made it to 4th level dressage before being injured.

Actually, My Reality, I agree with your ideas of breeding for a Better Dressage TB - I agree because that is my aim, too.

NO - it is not just the argument that supports a WB over a TB at work here. Seriously. Its about breeding a horse that is conformationally correct as possible for the job at hand.

I have “old style” TBs - lots of bone (not oversized, just substantial), deep girths, great neck sets, balanced in “thirds”, and built level (not downhill).

I have been offered some TB mares with nice bloodlines (for free) that I have turned away - because their legs were toothpicks, not straight, hind end too straight, shoulder too straight, poor neck set, etc. All have been OTT - why they were bred (none could run, either), who knows…

BUT everyone thinks that if its a registered mare, she should be bred. We won’t even go into that discussion here.

I do believe that for TBs to do well in dressage at UL - they need to be bred for that purpose. Oh, yeah, then I guess I do agree with those who breed WBs for dressage. Ooops- my bad!!!

[QUOTE=MyReality;3071484]
…I should be able go to a TB breeder specialised in dressage. I don’t want a WB, I don’t want a WB look-alike. I just like some refinement, in the long run. If it means they turn out looking more like a WB, be it. WB already has a lot of TB, so what? Why pick on what I want to see in a breed for a discipline, and superimpose that on my supposed advocation for WB? [/QUOTE]

I bring up WBs because you describe/require WB-bred physical characteristics. And I hope you find what you are looking for, I’m sure it’s possible.

My point is my OTTB went to GP without uphill build, extra girth, shorter legs – and he stayed 100% sound. So it’s really not altogether soundness issues you are addressing, it is a “look” you prefer. Or a look you think you need to succeed. Which is fine, it’s just not my first-hand experience regarding soundness issues or succeeding :slight_smile:

By all means, breed TBs to have whatever look you prefer. Wishing you all the very best!

An “uphill” build is actually a WB-specific trait and is not required for correct conformation or for correct dressage. A horse with universally (and classically) correct conformation will be built level. This minimizes strain on the joints and results in a more balanced horse. Extreme dressage WBs (uphill) and sprinter TBs (downhill) are both deviations from this norm. While their standards might call for that type of conformation, we need to remember that such traits are not desirable in general. There is a biomechanical reason that horses are built the way they are, and we need to be careful before tampering with this.

interesting, canticle.

I always thought, from my experience which is limited and without scientific basis, that the Iberians (ex., Lippizanners, Andies) stayed much sounder in upper level work than the uphill built horses.

Back to topic:lol:

Bonnie Epstine(sp?) on Golden Bandit. Pretty fancy if you ask me!

[QUOTE=canticle;3071883]
An “uphill” build is actually a WB-specific trait and is not required for correct conformation or for correct dressage. A horse with universally (and classically) correct conformation will be built level. This minimizes strain on the joints and results in a more balanced horse. Extreme dressage WBs (uphill) and sprinter TBs (downhill) are both deviations from this norm. While their standards might call for that type of conformation, we need to remember that such traits are not desirable in general. There is a biomechanical reason that horses are built the way they are, and we need to be careful before tampering with this.[/QUOTE]

I’m just a novice, but I still have to throw out my two cents and say that I think this post is brilliant.

In addition I wanted to point out that I’ve seen “downhill” built horses that are still VERY uphill in their movement.

Case in point, a QH stallion I use to own.

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/slideshow?a=67b0de21b35d0e7205cc&sid=8AcNnDdu5cOGFX&auto=0&m=1&d=1205442158929

What you can’t see in this picture is the fact that he has a very typical QH topline with his croup nearly two inches higher then his withers when standing on level ground.

back to topic…
Gail Redinger’s Optimistic, bred/foaled into a race barn but never raced.

They put in solid years showing at GP:
2003 Grand Prix Champion USDF All Breeds
2003 Grand Prix Freestyle Champion USDF All Breeds
2004 Grand Prix Champion USDF All Breeds
2004 Grand Prix Freestyle Champion USDF All Breeds
2005 Grand Prix Champion USDF All Breeds
2005 Grand Prix Freestyle Champion USDF All Breeds
2006 Grand Prix Champion USDF All Breeds
2007 Grand Prix Champion USDF All Breeds

2004 USDF Gold Medal and Gold Bar