Upper Levels - TBs?

[Tiligsmom]

Hi All,

OK…I’m seeking your knowledge/memory.

I realize that, regardless of breed, making it to the highest levels of dressage is contingent on a variety of variables, not the least of which is conformation.

I have a colleague who flat out says, “Don’t look at TBs because they can’t get to the highest levels of dressage”.

Now, I bristle at blanket statements like this, so I’m looking for your experiences/knowledge with TBs who did make it to the top of this sport.

I know Keen, Hilda Gurney’s Olympic mount was a TB

How about others?

[hoopoe]

Sinbad with Jeremy Steinberg

Tigris ( a QH mare) with Lindsey Anderson

[oldenmare]

Well, seems to me Tom Dvorak showed a TB at the 1998 World Cup - have the video but don’t recall horse’s name.

I personally think it has less to do with breed and much more with other factors but to each his/her own.

I have both warmbloods and TBs - each has own strong points - while my TB showhorse may be 7 mover and my WB a definite 8, the TB is a lot more consistent in temperment and a much easier horse in general to ride. At the same levels, I get higher scores on him because of that, even though the WB gets higher gait score (afterall, the rider score is x3; gait x2 - and YES it makes a difference).

[AMDressage]

Inez Propf-Credo “S” went to the Olympics way back when, on a bay TB mare.

[Sabine]

Personally- I really don’t care at all about the breed. When I look at a horse- I have to first
‘feel’ it. I have to get a sense of it’s energy and being. Then I like to go over it’s body with a fine tooth comb and see it move free- preferrably in a large safe arena- with good footing. I don’t like folks whipping it around- just let it be…and take time.
I would love to have a good TB…and I know they are out there- just like there are a lot of other breeds and crosses…

The way things are right now- if you are looking for a prospect- unless you have generous means- it behooves to look in the States. There are very good breeders around that breed for results. It would help though- to know a lot about conformation and desired body mechanics- prior to going and actually looking. Ideally scribing for a materiale judge (like Hilda Gurney is…) would be a great training ground to learn the get the ‘eye’. Once you have the ‘eye’ - you can find the right one for yourself- and I believe that a good TB is a fantastic choice- assuming that the personality matches yours and you believe in each other.

[fish]

Monica Theodorescu’s exquisite Arak xx was in the top 8(or 6?) in the World Cup in the late 90’s, with a lot of people thinking they should have scored much higher.
In earlier generations, a great many, if not most of the top dressage horses were TB’s, e.g. Willi Schutheis’ Brilliant xx, Chronist xx, Pernod xx; Jessica Newberry (now Ransehauseen)'s Forstrat, etc.

[Carol_Ames]

Trenzado Linda Oliver

[not_again]

My two: le Bleme, and Valentino. Le Bleme’s pedigree was unknown but he was tattooed. I rode him in the tryouts for the 1968 dressage team to Mexico City. He also won the Green Mt. three day event with his previous owner. I won working hunter championships on him and evented him through intermediate. (My friend Lois Aller competed her American saddle bred in the Olympic trials as well. Her horse’s name was Student Prince.) My second thoroughbred Valentino was unraced. I picked him out as a two year old because he played in the field doing tempi changes including ones, all clean, and pirouettes as well. He had a wonderful piaffe but could have had more jump in the passage. While he foxhunted and evented as well, he never got over his phobia of pinto ponies.

[x31]

Elizabeth Madlener took 3 OTTBs to GP during her competitive career. At least one was short listed by the USET.

[Capriole]

Cyndi Rose Wylie showed Kriter at GP. Lisa Froehling had a GP TB (I think off the track) named Prospecting Moment.

[see_u_at_x]

[QUOTE=x3;3064068]
Elizabeth Madlener took 3 OTTBs to GP during her competitive career. At least one was short listed by the USET.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I can’t answer the OP’s question, but didn’t Elizabeth also train one of her students to GP on a QH? I think I heard that from my former BM who used to train with her…

[sm1]

USDF ALL BREEDS AWARDS 2007 with North American Thoroughbred Society
Training Level Open: Tank Force, ridden and owned by Jennifer Hankins-Brown, 68.400%; Copilot to Pilot, ridden and owned by Catherine Hall, 64.757%; Red Seacliff, ridden and owned by Jeanette Lyon, 62.400%. Training Level Adult Amateur: Tank Force, ridden and owned by Jennifer Hankins-Brown, 68.400%; Copilot to Pilot, ridden and owned by Catherine Hall, 64.757%; Red Seacliff, ridden and owned by Jeanette Lyon, 62.400%. Training Level Vintage Cup: Catherine Hall, riding Copilot to Pilot, 64.757%. First Level Open: Best Me I Can Be, owned by Mary Halvorson, ridden by Laura Rising, 63.553%; Taipan, owned and ridden by Kaitlyn Hennessy, 62.632%; Copilot to Pilot, ridden and owned by Catherine Hall, 62.053%. First Level Adult Amateur: Catherine Hall, riding Copilot to Pilot, 62.053%. First Level Junior/Young Rider: Kaitlyn Hennessy, riding Taipan, 62.632%. First Level Musical Freestyle: Sir Tobias, owned and ridden by Catherine Jacob, 64.375%. Second Level Musical Freestyle: Sir Tobias, owned and ridden by Catherine Jacob, 62.500%. Fourth Level Open: Thanks a Bunch, owned and ridden by Emily Craig, 62.242%. Prix St. Georges Open: Northwest Native, owned and ridden by Laura Rising, 59.000%. Diesel, owned and ridden by Christina Lortz, 58.750%. Prix St. Georges Adult Amateur: Christina Lortz, riding Diesel, 58.750%. Grand Prix Open and also Grand Prix Vintage Cup: Optimistic, owned and ridden by Gail Redinger, 60.625%. Four-Year-Old and Older Stallions Champion: Irish Hills Tonka Toy, owned by Lisa Cook, 70.800%. Mature Gelding Champion: Native’s Bugle Boy, owned by Colleen Curtin, 67.100.

source: http://www.hellohorse.com/rankings.htm

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@Tiligsmom;3061714

Hi All,

OK…I’m seeking your knowledge/memory.

I realize that, regardless of breed, making it to the highest levels of dressage is contingent on a variety of variables, not the least of which is conformation.

I have a colleague who flat out says, “Don’t look at TBs because they can’t get to the highest levels of dressage”.

Now, I bristle at blanket statements like this, so I’m looking for your experiences/knowledge with TBs who did make it to the top of this sport.

I know Keen, Hilda Gurney’s Olympic mount was a TB

How about others?

Many, many TBs have gone to the highest levels in dressage. :yes:

But very few TBs have been regionally or nationally competitive at the highest levels in the last few years anyway. The breeds’ characteristics simply do not include the kind of gaits that get the high scores in the dressage arena today.

Note however that modern WBs have a lot of TB blood in their breeding. The heart, responsiveness and forward thinking of the TB is highly desireable, with the dressage type movement being necessary for high scores.

[sm1]

not to mention to do upper level work one needs a good canter, the TB brings that to the table too.

Today’s tests asks for extravagent gaits, which does mean a TB will lose points there. However, for a small child or for an older woman with back problems, a less-extravegant-gaited TB may be the horse of choice.

[Lgd1]

My older mare made Inter I competitively and can do all the GP work, her P&P are correct but need more expression/suspension. She’s National Hunt bloodlines (jump-racing) so is considerably more substantial than a flat racer, albeit she is a bit upright behind and tending towards croup high. She has a superb walk, an average trot and a good canter. Despite her shortcomings she made it because of her superb trainability and temperament - it’s often been a case of convincing her that 100% will do, 110% is not necessary

She’s now semi-retired as I bit the bullet and bred a foal from her in 2006, I do still work her at home and am currently debating about re-registering her to compete as she is going quite well - she is officially 19yo now.

The best bit now is her coming 2yo daughter who is KWPN registered and has combined the best of her parents physical traits. Itching for 2010 so we can start playing

[pintopiaffe]

He had a wonderful piaffe but could have had more jump in the passage. While he foxhunted and evented as well, he never got over his phobia of pinto ponies.

:lol: That just completely cracks me up.

So many WB’s are such high % TB that it is just bunk to say don’t even look at TB’s. I’ve no idea myself, but how far has Laurie’s Crusader gone? Innkeeper? Aren’t they both TB and very popular with the WB folks…

As has already been mentioned, the RIGHT TB can be the RIGHT horse for you… but it may not be.

What % of any breed is competitive INTERNATIONALLY at the highest levels? Few. What % of them are competitive at a local/regional level for A/As? Quite a few more.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=Tiligsmom;3061714]
Hi All,

OK…I’m seeking your knowledge/memory.

I realize that, regardless of breed, making it to the highest levels of dressage is contingent on a variety of variables, not the least of which is conformation.

I have a colleague who flat out says, “Don’t look at TBs because they can’t get to the highest levels of dressage”.

Now, I bristle at blanket statements like this, so I’m looking for your experiences/knowledge with TBs who did make it to the top of this sport.

I know Keen, Hilda Gurney’s Olympic mount was a TB

How about others?[/QUOTE]

Well we didn’t make to the UL as my poor TB stallion had an accident and was euthanized at only 5 but I think he WOULD have. As it was difficult to get a trainer that would take a stallion he had to stay at home and have Moi training him, which was the slow route! That said we managed by going to clinics. We went to dressage clinics intermittenly with 3 different BNT trainers and all 3 told me he was a GP prospect…so not just my opinion!! And it’s not like they were impressed at first. First thing they saw was a greenish TB stallion and looked like “oh no…”. Then they got to know him (specifically that he was THE hardest working young horse they ever saw and he tried really hard to do what we asked of him). By the end they loved him. With 2 of them they got to like him on the first clinic and wanted to get up and ride him themselves for the next one. At one clinic he was so tired by the time the clincian was done riding him that I didn’t get MY lesson on him…but I really didn’t feel that bad about the clinician liking him so much he didn’t want to get off! I figured the horse got his training that day one way or the other!!
2 of the clinicians told me he would probably not show real well at the lower levels where the WBs with the fancy auction trots would probably win on flash, but as he moved up since he was a non flashy but solid and correct horse that he would start to shine when he moved up.
Photo at age 4: at this point he had about 40 days under saddle
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BoomertrotOct05.jpg
pedigree
http://www.pedigreequery.com/wild+by+design

[johnnysauntie]

South African Gill Meyer rode her OTTB (found in the holding pen at an abbatoir by a friend who called her and said "there’s nice horse here that you should see, hurry down …) El Rey to a country championship - and I believe they competed internationally (could be wrong, though.)

[sm1]

[QUOTE=camohn;3068980]
2 of the clinicians told me he would probably not show real well at the lower levels where the WBs with the fancy auction trots would probably win on flash, but as he moved up since he was a non flashy but solid and correct horse that he would start to shine when he moved up.

pedigree
http://www.pedigreequery.com/wild+by+design [/QUOTE]

That was the case with my OTTB who went from training level to GP. He was always scored midrange, even so he won his share of blue ribbons and regional championships (he was never a super high scorer, just often enough put in the best test that day).

But the pedigree really cracks me up: my TB’s sire is Storm Cat, which in and of itself is enough to have euro trainers run screaming from the indoor. oh well, to each his own.

[MyReality]

I have one thing ‘bad’ to say about TB, if we truly believe in TB in dressage all the way to the top, we need more breeding effort in refining the breed for dressage, instead of taking your chances from a pool of gazillion OTTB’s. I see this completely possible, because many TB’s are great as is. I am not remotely near GP, so I would not know what horses are required. But most TB’s would be quite comfortable breaking into second or third.

I love TB’s. They just have so much heart and intuition it’s unbelievable. I have ridden many breeds, but none compare to a good TB… it’s like riding butter, yogurt or sour cream, he is that soft… it makes other things challenging but the way he yields and make room for you and scoop you up when you’re off… it makes you feel like a real horse owner… haha.

I used to believe TB could be limited in dressage because it takes a lot to get their back to swing. But now I realize it is a matter of training technique.