Upside down presentation ...

[TrueColours]

Here are the YouTube foaling clips from the Guaranteed Gold / Puchi Trap birth that the wonderful people at Mare Stare put together for me:

Foaling Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbOgr64SukY

Foaling Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughPdzhEC9g

Foaling Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCzQfY5ge5M

For those that didnt see it - help me learn as well. The sac was evident after the water broke and the first foot I saw was upside down. I went in with a glove and lube and found the 2nd foot - also upside down and then found the head - upside down as well. I had an “oh @#!%” moment, then got a halter on her and tried walking her around in her stall to see if I could get the foal to slide back down again. No go …

What could I or should I have done at this point to possibly rectify this situation sooner? I tried to walk her around to get the foal to slide back in again and that didnt work - it didnt even appear to slide back down even a little bit

Should I have manually tried to push him back down in there, or was the foaling so far along that no choices were open to me except to deliver him as presented and pray that he flipped over on his own (which he did thank God) once he reached a certain point? Once his shoulders cleared, he twisted and flipped on his own and it then became a normal presentation and foaling after that

I would be very interested to hear what others have done - successfully and not so successfully - when presented with this very issue. The big problem was well is that this foal is probably the biggest one I have delivered so he was HUGE, upside down and firmly stuck in there. NOT a good combination to have at all …

I was on the phone with the vet several times as things were progressing, telling him what I was seeing and we both knew he wouldnt be able to make it in time to assist so I ultimately needed to figure this one out right then and there. The biggest issue I had to overcome, mentally and logistically, was delivering this foal UP towards her back instead of DOWN towards her hocks as that is the way the foal’s body was contoured in this delivery …

Here are a few pictures of the HUGE foal that this poor mare had to deliver upside down as well … these were taken at about 4-5 hours old …

and:

and:

Thanks everyone, as always …

[aurum]

It is the third one that shows how badly placed that huge foal is. Looks really scary. Given the fact that one should draw a foal out downside it would have broken something in this foal as it is placed opposite than it should. My God I would have run around like a chicken without head. This is the year of weird foalings. I never had a red bag before and now this foal upside down, never have seen such before either, THANK GOD I must say seeing this difficult birth. Poor mama.

[Laurierace]

You saved the mare and the foal so that means what you did was perfect as far as I am concerned. I believe you could have tried to cross the forelegs over and try to get the foal to twist as you are crossing them. Great job!

[SSFLandon]

@Laurierace;4889344

You saved the mare and the foal so that means what you did was perfect as far as I am concerned. I believe you could have tried to cross the forelegs over and try to get the foal to twist as you are crossing them. Great job!

Ditto that, good job and what a cute foal!

[acottongim]

I’ve had two like this - one in 2008 with my pony mare and one this year (my last colt that was born). I don’t know what is the “right” thing to do I just went with my gut on both and did the best I could. The pony mare was a pro and hers wasn’t quite as bad (foal was slightly smaller and not as badly positioned etc). The PONY kept getting up and down and slightly rolling to reposition the filly and at the 3rd time she did successfully do so. I allowed the pony mare to pretty much dictate what to do as she really seemed to know what she was doing LOL. I did have to assist a bit with getting the filly out past the shoulders but by and large she did everything. Mom and baby were fine and it was a longer birthing that normal from start to finish.

This year’s was different. Sounds very simliar to yours - foal was upside down, ears were pointed toward hocks, etc (large foal, shoulder locked). What was different was the foal had one hoof/part of leg, the other hoof and the nose had just come out and the sac broke so I was dealing with GET THE FOAL OUT NOW so it doesn’t suffocate. It was all I could do to keep from pulling until a contraction and as soon as it started I pulled for all I was worth to get the foal out. Mom and baby are fine now but it was very scary at the time (I so know what was going through your mind and am sorry). I did try to get the mare up and walk her hoping that when she lay back down she would reposition a bit but the silly mare just ended up going into a worse area of the stall (went from 1 foot away from the door to up against the wall). Another reason to always be present when the mare foals - I 'm quite sure that both our foals would have died if we hadn’t been there and the mares could have too. Thank goodness yours ended well also, congratulations.

[Quinn]

Donna, all I can say is WELL DONE and congratulations. I think you owe God a thank you on this one too.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[dianehalpin]

WOW! And he is a gorgeous boy - I love his coloring! My goodness, the worst I had was one positioned out to the side and thankfully the mare stood up and we pulled on the contractions and out the healthy colt came, PLOP, right onto the grass. The mare was out in the pasture because the stall was too small for her frantic walking, trying to position the foal - for two days! Every trip to the foaling shed is an adventure and now I color my gray hairs! Good, good, good for you!

[TrueColours]

Oh Anissa - yours sounded far worse than what I was dealing with! My sac stayed intact until the shoulders cleared and then I broke it as I saw the foal was already struggling inside.

The mare did end up with a 2 inch tear up top right at the opening and now in hindsight it probably was a foot scraping along up top coming out that ended up tearing her a bit. That was another concern. As I had never dealt with a uterine bleed before (thank God!) I didnt know if that was what I was seeing her as the blood was coming out quite profusely and puddling where she was laying. Another call to the vet laid that concern to rest as he said it would be spurting out which was not the case …

You saved the mare and the foal so that means what you did was perfect as far as I am concerned

Thats the true litmus test isnt it? If both mare and foal come out okay in the end …

The other issue I had to deal with on my own as hubby had already gone in, was that afterwards she was colicking quite badly and wouldnt get up for almost 2 hours, so I was milking her as she was down and bottle feeding the baby to make sure he got the colostrum he needed until Mum was ready to get up. I had to give her some Banamine IV but it was damned tough on my own, with her down and her neck not in the right position to find the vein and the colt stumbling around. FInally I did and about 30 minutes later once it had fully kicked in and she felt the full effects of it, she got up, gave herself a shake and all seemed right in her world once again

I think you owe God a thank you on this one too.

Believe me Jay - once all was said and done and I could breathe again, thats exactly what I did …

[FalseImpression]

I just looked at the pictures and congratulations for another beautiful foal! It must have been quite scary!

I did watch Anissa’s foaling and it was scary! Mostly the next day when the foal was so lethargic.

So glad everything ended well for both of you, the mares and the foals!

[Equine_Reproduction]

A couple of things here. It is NOT unusual for a foal presentation to start out with the foal upside down. If you watch the mare and even your mare Donna, they will attempt to reposition the foal on their own by rolling. Step back and let her roll! In all but one foaling that I’ve attended where the foal was upside down, the mare managed to correct the problem on her own. Getting her up and walking her, so long as you have both feet and a nose presentation, is actually counterproductive inasmuch as labor is progressing and she’s not able to do her own “gymnastics” to shift things around. Unfortunately, we tend to want to jump in and “fix” things when sometimes it “is” just a matter of giving Mother Nature a little bit more time. But, ultimately, if you have a live foal and both mare and foal do just fine, all is right with the world <smile>.

[QUOTE=acottongim;4889393]
What was different was the foal had one hoof/part of leg, the other hoof and the nose had just come out and the sac broke so I was dealing with GET THE FOAL OUT NOW so it doesn’t suffocate. [/QUOTE]

Okay, “this” is a common misunderstanding of foaling that we hear a LOT. It doesn’t matter if the sac has broken. The foal will NOT suffocate so long as the placenta is still attached to both the foal and the mare. Indeed, the foal CAN’T take a breath so long as it’s ribcage is still in the mare. Physically impossible. While the foal is still attached to the placenta, it is receiving all the oxygen it needs through the umbilical cord… It is one of the reasons if you have a red bag delivery that time is of the essence as the placenta is no longer attached to the wall of the uterus and the foal is no longer receiving vital oxygen.

Hope that helps explain a few things.

[Sugarbrook]

I also say “Job well done”. You certainly remined cool and calm. I was very nervous just watching the video (I have a mare due to foal, the 4th for me this year), so obviously every possible scenario runs thru my head with every foaling.
Whewwwww is all I can comment!!

[Equilibrium]

I had one that presented exactly the same a couple of years ago but for me the vet was able to arrive in 10 mins so I did walk her around until the vet arrived. He actually had us turn her loose in the pen to see if she would roll and after 10 mins she didn’t so he did re-postition her himself. Have no idea how he did it and he did an awesome job. Foal was eventually foaled normally and thankfully both were healthy.

terri

[K_2]

Kathy has very good advice. My mare has presented with upside down foals twice. The first time I had a good bit of adrenaline rushing, but all I did was try to protect her rectum with my arm as she foaled. Went back to a couple of foaling texts after that and learned upside down presentation is quite common. The second foal was not as bad, as I was a lot more comfortable knowing this

[DLee]

:eek: WOW. Great job, what a big baby, poor mama looks wiped!

Geez I just wanna get mine OVER with.

[TrueColours]

Step back and let her roll! In all but one foaling that I’ve attended where the foal was upside down, the mare managed to correct the problem on her own

I would have loved it if she rolled and rolled and rolled again some more but as you said, once 2 feet came out and then the head up to his eyes I just couldnt fathom how she was going to correct it no matter how many times she rolled and I wasnt able to figure out how I was supposed to help her out either

It wasnt a case of resisting her attempts at rolling - she was perfectly invited to roll as many times as she felt necessary, its just she stopped at a certain point and got down to the business of pushing instead

Getting her up and walking her, so long as you have both feet and a nose presentation, is actually counterproductive inasmuch as labor is progressing and she’s not able to do her own “gymnastics” to shift things around.

Thank you - that information helps immensely if there is ever a second occurence like this one

Kathy - the other issue I was dealing with, was that the placenta came out a couple of minutes after birth, while she was still down and the umbilicus was still attached. I guess I could have gotten some twine and tied it off but opted to hold it and put tension on it instead so after a few minutes it broke on its own and when it did, there was “0” blood as it had already all transferred into him

Is there one method that is more right than the other in dealing with this situation?

[can_t_re]

Wow TC! Glad things ended well!

[Weese]

Good job TC - you must be relieved that it’s over! :yes:

I have to say reading this board has convinced me of one thing for sure - when I breed my one and only mare, she is foaling down at the clinic!

I have nothing but admiration for you guys, my nerves couldn’t take the strain of all this. :no:

I have already chickened out fo breeding her twice out of fear of what might happen… :eek:

[TrueColours]

Yeah - at time it can get a little hairy for sure … :lol:

I am just really glad that she is literally back to normal once again, with a bright eye, cleaning up her feed bucket, no temperature and the colt is happy and healthy and bouncing around as well

[acottongim]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;4890579]
Yeah - at time it can get a little hairy for sure … :lol:

I am just really glad that she is literally back to normal once again, with a bright eye, cleaning up her feed bucket, no temperature and the colt is happy and healthy and bouncing around as well :)[/QUOTE]

And in the end that is all that matters!

btw - my last experience wasn’t worse than yours, it was very similar we just had other bad things happening that were side bars (like being up against the wall). I did try to get my mare up and hoped she would go down and roll but she kept going down up against walls and so forth so that was a no go, and by then too much was out to worry about that sort of stuff. For what it is worth he did NOT rotate and slid completely out with his ears towards his hocks. And yes, Kathy, I “understand” that a foal can’t breathe while inside the dam, but I had a foal that was stuck, upside down, tongue was dark purple hanging out of his mouth, no movement whatsoever and no air. I was afraid that not only was the sac open but the cord was pinched or something. It took him coming all the way out (past rib cage, he was all the way out) and what seemed like an eternity (but was prob only a min or two) of really rubbing neck/rib cage etc to try and stimulate him before I got ANYTHING from him - and he was very lethargic for 24 hours and I had the vet out 3 times his first day (IgG was initially low too). I was lucky in that I didn’t tear the mare or anything - she only had slight bruising.

It is good to know what to do though and what to panic over and not panic over. I wish my big mare had been as smart as my little pony mare - but maybe he was just so big that he wasn’t turning no matter what… She had looked like she was going to foal for a few days prior and was up and down and rolling a lot the days before her foaling.

[showjumpers66]

I agree with Kathy. For me, I would have done nothing as I don’t consider this to be a dystocia. Many foals present in this position and will turn on their own before the shoulders present. If the foal isn’t turning well on its own with each push, then I may twist a bit to help guide the foal. If the mare isn’t moving the foal and it doesn’t appear to be rotating, then I may get concerned and step in to help, but I have found that you can often make a train wreck out of what the mare could typically resolve on her own.