BS…buying in Europe is no different than anywhere else. You need to forge a relationship with the people. Doing business with the Germans is a pleasure.
You folks trying to buy sight unseen online and from people you don’t know are just asking for it.
[QUOTE=flyracing;8067571]
Well known fact that the price is often, but not always, raised (some times significantly) for a foreign buyer. [/QUOTE]
And raised again by the importer/trainer once the horse is on U.S. soil and the clients are ready to buy.
[QUOTE=Mardi;8075051]
And raised again by the importer/trainer once the horse is on U.S. soil and the clients are ready to buy.[/QUOTE]
This is true to but it is their business so to be expected.
It’s always buyer beware no matter which country you are shopping in. My experiences buying in Germany have always been good in fact, I have found the people to place a very high regard on integrity and honour when doing business.
Sometimes hard to find these days…
I found the same thing when traveling in certain asian countries, not for horse related purchases though. I had people who spoke chinese do the negotiating because the locals would admit they had two prices, the chinese price and the American price.
“Fair Market Value” definition:
“A price at which buyers and sellers with a reasonable knowledge of pertinent facts, and not acting under any compulsion, are willing to do business”.
Just because a US buyer is willing to do business at a higher price, does not mean that he/she is being gouged. The FMV for a non-US buyer might well be lower because such a buyer is not willing to do business at the higher price.
I do not see anything wrong or underhanded if a seller quotes a higher price to a US buyer. The buyer is always free to offer a lower amount or to walk away. If the buyer agrees to purchase the horse at the quoted price then, by definition, that price becomes the FMV.
Hmmmm… I know quite a few American “trainers” that go to Germany/Holland and buy horses there that they then sell in the US for sometimes twice the amount. I guess that’s alright??
[QUOTE=siegi b.;8076346]
Hmmmm… I know quite a few American “trainers” that go to Germany/Holland and buy horses there that they then sell in the US for sometimes twice the amount. I guess that’s alright??[/QUOTE]
This definitely happens quite a bit…
If that trainer’s “stamp of approval” makes the horse appealing to a buyer at double the price, why not? Retailers routinely double the price of wholesale. If the pro buys a horse, they take on a degree of risk. Now, what I DON’T condone is a pro shopping as an agent for a client, being quoted a price, then telling the buyer that the horse costs double and pocketing the difference. Notable, in such cases, the pro has the audacity of also charge a commission and other fees above the quoted price.
Americans are known for over paying and for not being interested in haggling on price. As such, dealers in Europe put higher prices on their stock because they can.
Easy advice: Know the people you’re buying from. Doesn’t matter where they are.
Sales barns bring young horses in, raise/train to sell and keep the money coming in.Pay the staff, buy the feed. I assume the prices/selection are still less than than in North America or why do trainers buy there?
[QUOTE=Dinah-do;8082256]
Sales barns bring young horses in, raise/train to sell and keep the money coming in.Pay the staff, buy the feed. I assume the prices/selection are still less than than in North America or why do trainers buy there?[/QUOTE]
They buy in Europe because a quality 4 - 6 year old with a successful show record will be cheaper in Europe than in North America even including import costs.
[QUOTE=Mistysmom;8082469]
They buy in Europe because a quality 4 - 6 year old with a successful show record will be cheaper in Europe than in North America even including import costs.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention that there are more of them because the US is short of young horse starter/trainers, and getting quality show experience is much, much more expensive and limits people’s desire to go with young, unproven horses.
exactly - I bought 2 in Europe and most likely everyone made a few bucks on the deal. The only hassle was the north American agent who was pretty much a waste of time. The europeans were great. Love the horses. North Americans can be difficult to deal with.
Europeans put youngsters into a program to get them ready to compete at 4 or 5. The structure there allows a young horse to get started and earn a show record and be appealing salable prospects by age 5.
Some areas have subsidized breeding outfits to develop the equine crop. Show costs are lower so earning a provable performance status costs less.
Also, many (not all) are professional BREEDERS. They don’t keep a mare or two and breed them. They evaluate their crops very critically and send prospects off the most appropriate training environment. They are prepared to sell when any reasonable offer arrives. As a racing person, I hear sport people say that “big racing breeding outfits aren’t nurturing” or have an assembly line mentality. Yes and no. If you are raising 50 (or 200) foals, you better have a plan. Big Euro sport breeders have a plan.
US breeders are typically smaller outfits. I hear shoppers say that they found a nice 2yo but the breeder won’t sell. They “might keep him a colt” or they think he will be worth thousands more at 3 or… The Euro breeder takes a reasonable price and pays off the stud fee and moves on.
Europe has better selling methods, made possible by far smaller distances.I could see 30 horses that meet my general criteria (whatever that may be) in Germany in a week or so by buying a comprehensive rail pass or with a rental car and a bit of nerve.
Sure, I could go to Wellington or Ocala or Thermal or later in the year places further north but horses at show grounds are automatically more expensive because the seller is interested in recouping show expenses. The breeders of the top prospects are scattered across a huge continent and there is no central shopping district. A friend of mine was looking for a well started hunter prospect in the US. Didn’t need n A show record, maybe a local or two to prove he could ship to a new venue. She spent her entire “horse” budget on travel and got frustrated by buyers who didn’t want to sell horses that they had advertised for sale. A year later she went to Europe for a weekend and came home with a perfect match.
I just hate this generalizations ! Digging and some others put it so well: fair market value, knowing whom to buy from, crooks are everywhere etc.
prices can vary sometimes for other reasons: I’m summer higher as people have good hopes to sell autumn or let it be winter lower to just sell.
I recently sold a foal that for unknown reasons sit not sell for unknown reasons (I learned from someone in between filly was to cheap so buyers for good quality did not check the price range she was offered in ?!). She went for a very small amount as I myself can not raise her myself e.g.
I’m with Alexandra on this… Some folks are so quick to generalize about something they have no clue about! I would say he majority of German breeders have between 1 and 3 foals a year - sort of like the average American breeder - and those folks are as honest or deceiving as their American counterparts as well.
Keeping in mind the size of the country (Texas is TWICE as large!), breeders in Germany tend to be more concentrated and you don’t have to get on a plane if you want to see more than three breeders. So yes, going there to look at horses you’ll have to travel less to see more than you would here.
It gets a bit more complicated when you’re looking for a horse that is already started because at that point you’re no longer dealing with the breeder, but typically with a trainer and/or agent depending on how you started your search, and again, those are as honest or crooked as their American counterparts.
Anyway, not trying to write a book but sometimes the generalities voiced about “the European Rip-Off Gang” just rub me the wrong way…
I agree with Siegi…there are honest and dishonest folks EVERYWHERE. You can get taken for a song trying to buy a hunter horse right here in the US from an agent.
It is also true that the vast majority of breeders in BOTH Europe and the US are small having 1-3 broodmares. I do think in Europe, due to the concentration of horses and structure of the Verbands/ inspections/shows, breeders a much more realistic of their stock. Here in the US everything that hits the ground is “FEI potential”. There they will say “this is a nice foal, but he will not be a superstar”.
Buying horses always comes down to making the right connections and finding an agent or representative you trust. If you cannot find that, buying at the auctions is a relatively safe avenue as well. The Verbands really want happy customers and they are willing to help make the right connections for folks.
Lastly, I do not find it at all “shady” for a trainer/ rider to go to Europe and buy horses in the 10-20K Euro range, take the risk of transporting the horses here, furthering their training and then selling for a higher price (even if that price is significantly higher). That is their business and how they make a living.
Lastly, I do not find it at all “shady” for a trainer/ rider to go to Europe and buy horses in the 10-20K Euro range, take the risk of transporting the horses here, furthering their training and then selling for a higher price (even if that price is significantly higher). That is their business and how they make a living.
No kidding. If a person takes issue with this then they are free to go to Europe, make the contacts, put on the miles and assume the risk themselves. Nobody is stopping them. Crazy that people think there is something dishonest or wrong about this. Apparently everyone should just work for free to subsidize a complete stranger’s horse habit.
Agree with the statements that majority of the European breeders are smaller, I recall hearing at our AGM that small, family breeders (1-5 mares) make up about 80% of the KWPN NL breeders.
There is also some discussion that breeders there are facing similar problems as we do here with getting their young horses started and on the proper path to sport. Also the manner in which they need to be making selections for their mares, among other topics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3Kd7DZLYMY&t=205
We buy horses in Germany, Belgium and Holland bring them here, train them and resell them and our buyer are very happy we do, they have really nice well bred and hunter trained ring ready horses.
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