Sales barns bring young horses in, raise/train to sell and keep the money coming in.Pay the staff, buy the feed. I assume the prices/selection are still less than than in North America or why do trainers buy there?
[QUOTE=Dinah-do;8082256]
Sales barns bring young horses in, raise/train to sell and keep the money coming in.Pay the staff, buy the feed. I assume the prices/selection are still less than than in North America or why do trainers buy there?[/QUOTE]
They buy in Europe because a quality 4 - 6 year old with a successful show record will be cheaper in Europe than in North America even including import costs.
[QUOTE=Mistysmom;8082469]
They buy in Europe because a quality 4 - 6 year old with a successful show record will be cheaper in Europe than in North America even including import costs.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention that there are more of them because the US is short of young horse starter/trainers, and getting quality show experience is much, much more expensive and limits people’s desire to go with young, unproven horses.
exactly - I bought 2 in Europe and most likely everyone made a few bucks on the deal. The only hassle was the north American agent who was pretty much a waste of time. The europeans were great. Love the horses. North Americans can be difficult to deal with.
Europeans put youngsters into a program to get them ready to compete at 4 or 5. The structure there allows a young horse to get started and earn a show record and be appealing salable prospects by age 5.
Some areas have subsidized breeding outfits to develop the equine crop. Show costs are lower so earning a provable performance status costs less.
Also, many (not all) are professional BREEDERS. They don’t keep a mare or two and breed them. They evaluate their crops very critically and send prospects off the most appropriate training environment. They are prepared to sell when any reasonable offer arrives. As a racing person, I hear sport people say that “big racing breeding outfits aren’t nurturing” or have an assembly line mentality. Yes and no. If you are raising 50 (or 200) foals, you better have a plan. Big Euro sport breeders have a plan.
US breeders are typically smaller outfits. I hear shoppers say that they found a nice 2yo but the breeder won’t sell. They “might keep him a colt” or they think he will be worth thousands more at 3 or… The Euro breeder takes a reasonable price and pays off the stud fee and moves on.
Europe has better selling methods, made possible by far smaller distances.I could see 30 horses that meet my general criteria (whatever that may be) in Germany in a week or so by buying a comprehensive rail pass or with a rental car and a bit of nerve.
Sure, I could go to Wellington or Ocala or Thermal or later in the year places further north but horses at show grounds are automatically more expensive because the seller is interested in recouping show expenses. The breeders of the top prospects are scattered across a huge continent and there is no central shopping district. A friend of mine was looking for a well started hunter prospect in the US. Didn’t need n A show record, maybe a local or two to prove he could ship to a new venue. She spent her entire “horse” budget on travel and got frustrated by buyers who didn’t want to sell horses that they had advertised for sale. A year later she went to Europe for a weekend and came home with a perfect match.
I just hate this generalizations ! Digging and some others put it so well: fair market value, knowing whom to buy from, crooks are everywhere etc.
prices can vary sometimes for other reasons: I’m summer higher as people have good hopes to sell autumn or let it be winter lower to just sell.
I recently sold a foal that for unknown reasons sit not sell for unknown reasons (I learned from someone in between filly was to cheap so buyers for good quality did not check the price range she was offered in ?!). She went for a very small amount as I myself can not raise her myself e.g.
I’m with Alexandra on this… Some folks are so quick to generalize about something they have no clue about! I would say he majority of German breeders have between 1 and 3 foals a year - sort of like the average American breeder - and those folks are as honest or deceiving as their American counterparts as well.
Keeping in mind the size of the country (Texas is TWICE as large!), breeders in Germany tend to be more concentrated and you don’t have to get on a plane if you want to see more than three breeders. So yes, going there to look at horses you’ll have to travel less to see more than you would here.
It gets a bit more complicated when you’re looking for a horse that is already started because at that point you’re no longer dealing with the breeder, but typically with a trainer and/or agent depending on how you started your search, and again, those are as honest or crooked as their American counterparts.
Anyway, not trying to write a book but sometimes the generalities voiced about “the European Rip-Off Gang” just rub me the wrong way…
I agree with Siegi…there are honest and dishonest folks EVERYWHERE. You can get taken for a song trying to buy a hunter horse right here in the US from an agent.
It is also true that the vast majority of breeders in BOTH Europe and the US are small having 1-3 broodmares. I do think in Europe, due to the concentration of horses and structure of the Verbands/ inspections/shows, breeders a much more realistic of their stock. Here in the US everything that hits the ground is “FEI potential”. There they will say “this is a nice foal, but he will not be a superstar”.
Buying horses always comes down to making the right connections and finding an agent or representative you trust. If you cannot find that, buying at the auctions is a relatively safe avenue as well. The Verbands really want happy customers and they are willing to help make the right connections for folks.
Lastly, I do not find it at all “shady” for a trainer/ rider to go to Europe and buy horses in the 10-20K Euro range, take the risk of transporting the horses here, furthering their training and then selling for a higher price (even if that price is significantly higher). That is their business and how they make a living.
Lastly, I do not find it at all “shady” for a trainer/ rider to go to Europe and buy horses in the 10-20K Euro range, take the risk of transporting the horses here, furthering their training and then selling for a higher price (even if that price is significantly higher). That is their business and how they make a living.
No kidding. If a person takes issue with this then they are free to go to Europe, make the contacts, put on the miles and assume the risk themselves. Nobody is stopping them. Crazy that people think there is something dishonest or wrong about this. Apparently everyone should just work for free to subsidize a complete stranger’s horse habit.
Agree with the statements that majority of the European breeders are smaller, I recall hearing at our AGM that small, family breeders (1-5 mares) make up about 80% of the KWPN NL breeders.
There is also some discussion that breeders there are facing similar problems as we do here with getting their young horses started and on the proper path to sport. Also the manner in which they need to be making selections for their mares, among other topics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3Kd7DZLYMY&t=205
We buy horses in Germany, Belgium and Holland bring them here, train them and resell them and our buyer are very happy we do, they have really nice well bred and hunter trained ring ready horses.
[QUOTE=Linny;8083096]
Europeans put youngsters into a program to get them ready to compete at 4 or 5. The structure there allows a young horse to get started and earn a show record and be appealing salable prospects by age 5.
Some areas have subsidized breeding outfits to develop the equine crop. Show costs are lower so earning a provable performance status costs less.
Also, many (not all) are professional BREEDERS. They don’t keep a mare or two and breed them. They evaluate their crops very critically and send prospects off the most appropriate training environment. They are prepared to sell when any reasonable offer arrives. As a racing person, I hear sport people say that “big racing breeding outfits aren’t nurturing” or have an assembly line mentality. Yes and no. If you are raising 50 (or 200) foals, you better have a plan. Big Euro sport breeders have a plan.
US breeders are typically smaller outfits. I hear shoppers say that they found a nice 2yo but the breeder won’t sell. They “might keep him a colt” or they think he will be worth thousands more at 3 or… The Euro breeder takes a reasonable price and pays off the stud fee and moves on.
Europe has better selling methods, made possible by far smaller distances.I could see 30 horses that meet my general criteria (whatever that may be) in Germany in a week or so by buying a comprehensive rail pass or with a rental car and a bit of nerve.
Sure, I could go to Wellington or Ocala or Thermal or later in the year places further north but horses at show grounds are automatically more expensive because the seller is interested in recouping show expenses. The breeders of the top prospects are scattered across a huge continent and there is no central shopping district. A friend of mine was looking for a well started hunter prospect in the US. Didn’t need n A show record, maybe a local or two to prove he could ship to a new venue. She spent her entire “horse” budget on travel and got frustrated by buyers who didn’t want to sell horses that they had advertised for sale. A year later she went to Europe for a weekend and came home with a perfect match.[/QUOTE]
Of the people I know who have shopped in Europe, they’ve done it for exactly those reasons. When you can shop in a central location, it is hard not to justify going over there if you have a reasonable budget. People who have limited time to travel, whether they are professional trainers with lots of clients back home or amateurs with a busy day job need to make the most of the time they have available.
If you go to Europe you can see a ton of horses in even a short period of time vs, the US where you could easily blow a noticeable percentage of your shopping budget flying all over the place.
actually I have to admit I recently heard about someone I know who is selling horses via the Internet and not delivering any papers let alone the respectable horses. I was 
and I hope that sooner or later all the authorities will finish the work regarding this.
Means: if you will buy from someone unseen you either get a recommendation by someone you know or you ask around in Forums such like this or others.
Siegi - twice the amount would be fair business (like in “pawn stars” or “american pickers”, in order to cover vetting, shipping, insurance, overhead and risk, make room for profit, a pro has to buy at 50% of the expected retail!). However, in my experience, the sale price can often be 3-4 times that!
Point well taken, Szipi!
[QUOTE=szipi;8116825]
Siegi - twice the amount would be fair business (like in “pawn stars” or “american pickers”, in order to cover vetting, shipping, insurance, overhead and risk, make room for profit, a pro has to buy at 50% of the expected retail!). However, in my experience, the sale price can often be 3-4 times that![/QUOTE]
But that happens in the US too. I’ve seen people buy an inexpensive horse, put 30 - 60 days on the horse, take some good pics and video and sell the horse for 5 times what they paid. I think it is just business -not much different then house flipping or getting a screaming deal at a garage sale, then cleaning things up and reselling on Craigslist for a substantial profit. It happens. All the time. Not just with horses.
As to doubling the price when importing - the cost of importing alone can double the price, so I don’t see a huge issue with a pro who triples the price? And if they put 30 to 60 days on the horse, then the price goes up even more. Seems like a normal business model?
Many pros might look at the breeder and say - but your stud fee was only $2,000. Why do you think you can sell the foal for $10,000? Same concept. There are many other costs and risks that go on behind the scenes (and believe me, I know most breeders are not making much money).
As for buying from overseas - I have seen a lot of problem horses come out of this model. I think if you don’t have a good agent helping you, you are taking a big risk. When I think of all the acquaintances I know who ended up with imported horses (whether they went over and bought themselves OR bought a recently imported horse), there is just a huge incidence of lameness and neuro issues. I just sold a young horse, and the vet who did the pre-purchase exam said he sees a lot of neck injuries in imported young horses. I don’t know if this is just coincidence, but if I WAS to consider importing a horse (I am NOT thinking of doing that), I’d probably talk to someone who does it regularly and ask for their help.
I think there are unscrupulous sellers everywhere in ever industry - but when you buy overseas, you do lose some legal protections you might have buying in the US.
OTOH - there are wonderful sellers and buyers everywhere - I do think the vast majority of horse deals go smooth and well, we just don’t HEAR about those so often. And when things go wrong with a horse sale/purchase - well it is a living creature (and probably and expensive one), so there is additional emotions involved, not like buying/selling a car, or a stack of hay, or a piece of art.
I don’t have any problem with anyone finding a cheap diamond in the rough, polishing it up and selling it for however much more they can get for it.
And I’ve been there. I used to have nice horses that were push button C/A jumpers ready to go I couldn’t move for rock bottom prices. I learned to send them to an A barn to sell, they sold in days for twice what I had them priced at. Win-win for both of us. Not my fault the buyers wouldn’t purchase the horse from me a week earlier for half the price!
This is kind of a strange starter posting… but I think I know what oc-cal means.
since some years these “copy&paste agents” appear and and on horses are double and tripel brokerage. there are examples even inside germany where the comission of a horse was higher than the actual price - an we are talking about a over 1 million € sales price!
more an more they started to pimp the videos and even pictures of the horses. any lack in the bodyline is photoshopped and you seem to have a horse in just perfect shape. and videos! you dont believe what action is going on in the dead angle of the camera. I have seen some “brokers” having a pony or even a mare on heat in the hall so the horse taped it over-excited. a 20 year old will look like a horse which has show gaits… beware!
these agents are just interested in a quick sale; and most recently there is the new group of digital-native “agents” who started to roll up the market in germany - and they are everywhere, in fb, pinterest, twitter, instagram, whatsapp, etc.
find these old fashioned agents and sellers who are in the market for a long time. they might have a fb account but dont be surprised if they dont post too often - they have better things to do, normally horse related things! dont find it strange if they are not too contact friendly and dont want to talk on the phone (in general everyone speaks english in germany) - and they wont tell you how great their horse is… the typical german is more understating than exaggerating.
this is not a lampoon against abgents - there are agents and brokers who does a great job and who are good for the market! in first case a agent should work for you - and if he does not have the right match he - if he/her is good - definitly knows a horse which could match and he will forward you to the another agent who has the horse in their portfolio. the good agents divide the comission - it is always better to get half than nothing!
anyhow, I wrote all this in another threat already - just use your brain and your gut feeling. avoid all these shiny pages with “exclusive”, “premium”, “ultimate”, “deluxe”, “dressage-”, “equine-”, “talents”, also avoid “german”, “european”, even “center”, or any combinations - I think you know what I mean…
[QUOTE=szipi;8116825]
Siegi - twice the amount would be fair business (like in “pawn stars” or “american pickers”, in order to cover vetting, shipping, insurance, overhead and risk, make room for profit, a pro has to buy at 50% of the expected retail!). However, in my experience, the sale price can often be 3-4 times that![/QUOTE]
IMHO > A fair price for anything is whatever a buyer is willing to pay. If I have a product that I can mark the price up on and still sell than who would not do that? I grew up in my parents’ retail stores and it is seems obvious to me - it is just good business. It does not make you crooked or dishonest.
Although I envy anyone who can actually make money horses - I haven’t experienced that yet. :lol: …not that I advertise that fact to my significant other. 
[QUOTE=reitmeister;8128004]
This is kind of a strange starter posting… but I think I know what oc-cal means.
since some years these “copy&paste agents” appear and and on horses are double and tripel brokerage. there are examples even inside germany where the comission of a horse was higher than the actual price - an we are talking about a over 1 million € sales price!
more an more they started to pimp the videos and even pictures of the horses. any lack in the bodyline is photoshopped and you seem to have a horse in just perfect shape. and videos! you dont believe what action is going on in the dead angle of the camera. I have seen some “brokers” having a pony or even a mare on heat in the hall so the horse taped it over-excited. a 20 year old will look like a horse which has show gaits… beware!
these agents are just interested in a quick sale; and most recently there is the new group of digital-native “agents” who started to roll up the market in germany - and they are everywhere, in fb, pinterest, twitter, instagram, whatsapp, etc.
find these old fashioned agents and sellers who are in the market for a long time. they might have a fb account but dont be surprised if they dont post too often - they have better things to do, normally horse related things! dont find it strange if they are not too contact friendly and dont want to talk on the phone (in general everyone speaks english in germany) - and they wont tell you how great their horse is… the typical german is more understating than exaggerating.
this is not a lampoon against abgents - there are agents and brokers who does a great job and who are good for the market! in first case a agent should work for you - and if he does not have the right match he - if he/her is good - definitly knows a horse which could match and he will forward you to the another agent who has the horse in their portfolio. the good agents divide the comission - it is always better to get half than nothing!
anyhow, I wrote all this in another threat already - just use your brain and your gut feeling. avoid all these shiny pages with “exclusive”, “premium”, “ultimate”, “deluxe”, “dressage-”, “equine-”, “talents”, also avoid “german”, “european”, even “center”, or any combinations - I think you know what I mean…[/QUOTE]
Well you are right there are nowerdays strange agents around with FB pages chitting and chatting along. They have no “real” jobs, do not need to look after the horses themselves. They search the Internet for sales ads go there make new Video or steel the Video/pics and sell for more.
But to avoid some of the above mentioned words is also a generalisation that I can not agree. I know brokers that have been around for 15-20 years that may fall into that category and are still decent, normal doing a good Job !
As said use your common sense, ask for recommendations preferable in the US or other countries, check that out and go from there. No matter if the Person you contact is in the US, CAN or GER or Timbuktu…
Doublecheck back and forth that the Person / Agent is gunuine. And if it is just by asking a Forum like this. Sometimes there may be an anser of one Person who for whatver reason had a bad deal but if 5 others come up with good remarks - go figure.
I also very well remember a story (true) about a Lady in the US that forged the scores of a mare she offered for sale. Rather stupid idea, as this can be easily proven.
It happened also to some people that I know where the clients suddenly did not want to stick to the agent contract they signed in advance. And when being forced to (letter from lawers etc.) These clients spread around bad stories of the Agent. everything can happen in a different shades and all over the place.
