US Olympic Team and alternates named

This is regards to my post and counterpoint.

You raise valid counterpoints and the line I quote is undeniable. Where I was going is that as this sport evolves into a more public/professional sport, less equine aware people are going to talk/ask/comment and unless we are talking about hiding actual horse abuse, being upfront in regards to a show stopping injury, for professionals, is the better way to limit the naysayers and provide enough information to the majority that support, the issue becomes moot.

We can trust a owner/rider as an individual, but the general public may not know. PETA will always be PETA and find something to complain about so better to be open than not. Gossip and rumor cause way more harm. Someone commented on how putting this information out could impact a future sale of a top level horse. Consider that just by even announcing something as generic as “acute minor injury” already throws up a flag.

In your example it could be said “Dobbin’s not going to the Big Game, because he got a stone bruise and it will not heal in time”. Acute? Minor? and no big deal. Knowledgeable people (us) go “Ah, I understand that”. People who don’t go “What’s a stone bruise?” and we get to explain and teach. We all also know that a stone bruise today could have only been something even less and if I saw Dobbin at some regional thing and it was not limping I doubt I or most would say “rushed back in”. I like to think better of people.

Clearly disclosure is not required, but to discount the importance of transparency at the professional level is missing the bigger picture, visibility carries responsibility. You want fans, you want sponsors, you eventually need to satisfy their desire for information.

With that, back to the Olympics.

[QUOTE=JP60;8747615]

Clearly disclosure is not required, but to discount the importance of transparency at the professional level is missing the bigger picture, visibility carries responsibility. You want fans, you want sponsors, you eventually need to satisfy their desire for information.

With that, back to the Olympics.[/QUOTE]

I completely disagree. Of course you disclose more facts to OWNERS and SPONSERS…but not the general public or even fans. I’m sorry…but to me, they disclosed more than enough stating there was an injury and when they were hopefully going to return to competing. Wanting ANY more information is just being curious but not something the general public has a right to know NOR being anything that has any sort of influence on the sport or the public perception at all.

And for non-horsey fans…just saying the horse had an injury and is expected to be back competing the next year is more than enough information for them. Most wouldn’t give it a second thought. For horsey people…asking for more info is just being nosey.

It’s the NSFs – USEF in this case – that should be transparent with anything and everything to do with the selection process.

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8747816]
I completely disagree. Of course you disclose more facts to OWNERS and SPONSERS…but not the general public or even fans. I’m sorry…but to me, they disclosed more than enough stating there was an injury and when they were hopefully going to return to competing. Wanting ANY more information is just being curious but not something the general public has a right to know NOR being anything that has any sort of influence on the sport or the public perception at all.

And for non-horsey fans…just saying the horse had an injury and is expected to be back competing the next year is more than enough information for them. Most wouldn’t give it a second thought. For horsey people…asking for more info is just being nosey.[/QUOTE]
That’s cool. Different viewpoints makes for a diverse world. I might feel you are being a little naive on the non-horsey people. From what I’ve observed of humanity, it is a curious creature. We love to know things (just look at this forum), when very public horses got injured on the track, even non-horsey people wanted more than “it injured its leg” for what followed was how bad, how did it happen, what happens to the horse, what was the injury. Maybe not all, but enough that the media reported those details.

Eventing is not horse racing in terms of public interest, but the FEI wants it so and if they got their wish, people of all kinds will want answers when their favorite horse or rider does not show up or has something happen. This is a species that slows down at traffic accidents when the better response is to ignore it and drive on.

Still, we differ and that’s cool by me.

quoting JP6O: people of all kinds will want answers when their favorite horse or rider does not show up or has something happen.

Sometimes I think I am totally living in the past, but when I went to the LA Olympics, I sat in the ‘cheap seats.’ Out in the sun, and people sitting near me had the latest thing-small TVs so they could keep up on their soap operas.:rolleyes:
Some of the people sitting next to me actually asked, ‘Whats a bay gelding? Does it make him run fast?’:eek: I spent most of the dressage explaining to people that it isn’t a beauty pageant, and what sort of thing the judges were looking for. I will never forget that line tho.:no:

[QUOTE=Larksmom;8748660]
quoting JP6O: people of all kinds will want answers when their favorite horse or rider does not show up or has something happen.

Sometimes I think I am totally living in the past, but when I went to the LA Olympics, I sat in the ‘cheap seats.’ Out in the sun, and people sitting near me had the latest thing-small TVs so they could keep up on their soap operas.:rolleyes:
Some of the people sitting next to me actually asked, ‘Whats a bat gelding? Does it make him run fast?’:eek: I spent most of the dressage explaining to people that it isn’t a beauty pageant, and what sort of thing the judges were looking for. I will never forget that line tho.:no:[/QUOTE]

I agree, I bet 9 out of 10 general public has no idea what eventing even is. Then you explain what it is and you may get a couple people say “Oh yeah”.

[QUOTE=JP60;8748588]
That’s cool. Different viewpoints makes for a diverse world. I might feel you are being a little naive on the non-horsey people. From what I’ve observed of humanity, it is a curious creature. We love to know things (just look at this forum), when very public horses got injured on the track, even non-horsey people wanted more than “it injured its leg” for what followed was how bad, how did it happen, what happens to the horse, what was the injury. Maybe not all, but enough that the media reported those details.

Eventing is not horse racing in terms of public interest, but the FEI wants it so and if they got their wish, people of all kinds will want answers when their favorite horse or rider does not show up or has something happen. This is a species that slows down at traffic accidents when the better response is to ignore it and drive on.

Still, we differ and that’s cool by me.[/QUOTE]

Nope…not being Naïve. I’m surrounded by non-horsey people on a daily basis. Just had to put down a horse that I own…non-horsey friends are of course supportive…but certainly not interested in details.

Hell…I grew up sailing. If a boat went out of commission before or even during a big race, I didn’t care why or what was wrong. Just watched the rest of the race and cheered on those still in it.

Eventing is struggling to attract an audience. One of the recommended things that needs to be done is build personalities of both riders and horses for spectators to connect with. Get people to care and feel like they are part of the team, just like all pro sports do.

That means letting people in on what’s going on. If a horse or rider is injured, or the horse is withdrawn from competition, tell the fans to eff off its none of your business is not going to engender and loyalty or interest.

Eventing is a spectator sport. No spectators, no sponsors. No sponsors, no money. No money, no competition. It’s time that eventing as a sport (governing bodies, riders, trainers and owners) start treating spectators with more respect and value. After all, there is no sport without the spectators.

[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;8748973]

That means letting people in on what’s going on. If a horse or rider is injured, or the horse is withdrawn from competition, tell the fans to eff off its none of your business is not going to engender and loyalty or interest.[/QUOTE]

I NEVER said to tell fans to F off…I said MOST fans do not need details. Telling them it is an injury but not career ending and when they hope to be back competing IS letting them in. And is absolutely more than enough information for most fans of the horse and the sport. Of course some people want more information…but I would say those are in the minority.

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8748982]
I NEVER said to tell fans to F off…I said MOST fans do not need details. Telling them it is an injury but not career ending and when they hope to be back competing IS letting them in. And is absolutely more than enough information for most fans of the horse and the sport. Of course some people want more information…but I would say those are in the minority.[/QUOTE]

And non-horse people are not going to know the difference between a forelock and a hock. If you tell them a horse injured it’s leg or is lame, that’s usually enough for the crowd I talk to.

[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;8748973]
After all, there is no sport without the spectators.[/QUOTE]

There’s no sport without participants.

(In the real world, there’s lots and lots of sport without spectators.)

Angels dancing on the head of a pin - will there ever be a perfect answer for those angels? Not the discussion I expected checking in on the thread.

Replacement of an alternate weeks before the games start is not exactly information the public will be obsessing over once the action really starts. :wink:

I guess things are going well enough on the team front that there is nothing else to beat to death. At this exact moment. :winkgrin:

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8745058]
Yeah, neither PD or Boyd Martin have been with their Olympic selected horses very long. If PD is on Cubalawn, his first competition was at Stuart in 2014; Boyd started on BFM after Fair Hill in 2015. Compare to Jung and Aufarth and Klimke who have all had their horses for eons–they started them from the get-go. So Is Et has been with Ostholt doing FEI since 2010. (I checked the FEI database)

If there is one thing the Germans have, it’s partnership.[/QUOTE] You should have checked for Jung, too, because your statement above is not true. FischerTakinou was purchased by Jung at the start of 2014. The horse was produced to 1* by Jennifer Vuilleman of France, and has not completed a 4* yet.

Jung is the only person who has ever competed Fischerrocana at the FEI level. He is the only person who has ever competed Sam at the FEI level. Auffarth is the only person who has ever competed Opgun Louvo at the FEI. Klimke started Horseware Hale Bob at the 1* level in 2010, 3 different German riders tried him at the 1* in 2011, Klimke got the ride back in 2011 and no one else has ridden him since.

As to Fischertakinou, Jung took over the ride right after the horse’s 6 yo Le Lion run, and no one has ridden him at the FEI level since. He’s only 9 (not Jung but the horse. :slight_smile: ) Should point out that the horse was eliminated at the 6 yo Le Lion, but came 4th under Jung the next year (7 yo). Whereas PD and BM are riding horses who were produced to the 3* level by other riders. They took them straight to 4*.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8751093]
Jung is the only person who has ever competed Fischerrocana at the FEI level. He is the only person who has ever competed Sam at the FEI level. Auffarth is the only person who has ever competed Opgun Louvo at the FEI. Klimke started Horseware Hale Bob at the 1* level in 2010, 3 different German riders tried him at the 1* in 2011, Klimke got the ride back in 2011 and no one else has ridden him since.

As to Fischertakinou, Jung took over the ride right after the horse’s 6 yo Le Lion run, and no one has ridden him at the FEI level since. He’s only 9 (not Jung but the horse. :slight_smile: ) Should point out that the horse was eliminated at the 6 yo Le Lion, but came 4th under Jung the next year (7 yo). Whereas PD and BM are riding horses who were produced to the 3* level by other riders. They took them straight to 4*.[/QUOTE]

I think it’s also safe to say we can’t really compare Michael Jung’s talent and riding ability to PD or BM… don’t get me wrong, they’re excellent riders, but MJ is in an class by himself. :wink:

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8748848]
Nope…not being Naïve. I’m surrounded by non-horsey people on a daily basis. Just had to put down a horse that I own…non-horsey friends are of course supportive…but certainly not interested in details.

Hell…I grew up sailing. If a boat went out of commission before or even during a big race, I didn’t care why or what was wrong. Just watched the rest of the race and cheered on those still in it.[/QUOTE]
OF course they weren’t, you are a unknown in a sport that is hardly known outside the horsey world. You are not a star, in the limelight, trying to get the attention of people. There will not be a reporter knocking on your door asking why did you put down the horse.

When you are a star, when you compete for the limelight, the money,the attention then people will want details, because they are trying to live your life. That is why I see you as naive, because you have lived in bubble where most the world does not care.

My point was only that as this sport attempts to get more visibility, more attention, instead of a FB post on the horse condition there may be a reporter asking questions for an article and I doubt he or she will accept “it’s just a minor thing”. They, not you will decide what is important and the question we in this sport have to ask is, do we want that level of scrutiny?

Since we both have sailed, If Bob didn’t show for the big regatta, because of equipment failure I’d be curious for if we had the same boat, I might want to double check mine. However, if an AC 45 or VOR65, in the middle of a race got damaged where it affected performance, you bet I want to know every detail. Even more if I am cheering them on. When Dongfang lost a mast in the Southern Ocean there is not one sailing fan following the sport who not only wanted to know the details, they watched the video multiple times.

Like I said, we differ and that makes life different :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Divine Comedy;8736255]
To some extent though, it’s really not for equestrian and eventing/dressage in particular. Sure, the new coach is working with the riders, but this sport to a strong extent is about having the best horses in the world. Within the four years time frame, we are essentially still working with the same horses we had four years ago for the most part, but they are further along in their training. Still, there is a cap on what they can do and it’s unlikely that most of our current horses can challenge for individual medals. Loughan Glen is the exception, and certainly Mai Baum and RF Scandalous may have had potential to do the same but obviously are out for the year.

Meanwhile, we are hopefully bringing along more talented horses along behind them, but from green to Olympics, that is really an eight year process, not a four year one. Mai Baum is a good example of the rising talent, and Doesn’t Play Fair doesn’t fall far off the mark based off his spring season this year. Both of these horses are essentially just now ‘coming into power’ per se, and both could be major contenders by 2020.

Look at all the press Water Cube is getting. He’s a four year old, just off the track, and the main media outlets keep saying that event though he won’t be ready for Rio, he could be there for Tokyo. The reality is that if the horse becomes an Olympic prospect, it won’t be until 2024, when he’s twelve.

Basically, it’s really more of a six to eight year process to bring a horse from baby to the Olympic levels, even with a pro like Boyd or Phillip. If we’re selecting different horses under the new process and coach (and I do think WEG caused a re-evaluation of the blood we need, so that process could have essentially started over in 2014), we’re really looking at 2020 before we could be a major player on the team front.[/QUOTE]

Yes.

[QUOTE=Divine Comedy;8738094]
The top, most-promising, potentially internationally winning Le Lion 6 and 7 year olds are generally still not for sale. The U.S. is starting to realize that to have those truly top class international 3 and 4 star horses, we need to either breed them ourselves or buy them at 3 and 4 years old. So that’s another 3-4 years just to get them to the point of being top class at an event like Le Lion. The one star and two star levels are not the starting point of the timeline, they are the mid-point of the timeline. Now we’re back to looking at six to eight year timelines again.

Obviously there are exceptions. Cooley Dream might be one of those exceptions eventually. But horses like Mai Baum and Glen…both purchased quite young and produced in the U.S. from the Novice and Training levels. Those horses wouldn’t have been for sale as one star horses because by then their talent would have been too obvious as potentially world-beating talent.[/QUOTE]

Excellent point. I’ve been wondering about this a lot recently, since we keep seeing a lot of people buying going 3* horses a year or two before a big team competition, and none of them seem to pan out. It seems like if a horse going that level had the potential to win a medal, it probably wouldn’t be for sale.

Sorry all, didn’t mean to start a discussion on what we’re entitled to know… Literally, JUST saying the FACT that the post was vague, meaning not a lot of information given. I have absolutely no opinion on whether that’s wrong or right. :smiley:

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8748848]
Just had to put down a horse that I own[/QUOTE]

Just a pause in the discussion to offer my condolences BFNE. Never easy to lose a horse.