but show jumpers are a WHOLE different ball of wax. Much different training and fitness. They do compete, as do the non GP horses in US that travel a lot. but this IS a lot of traveling in a relatively short time. I agree it would mostly affect the training, are they allowed to gallop in quarantine or are they stalled?
Isn’t the July competition one of those invitationals that Clark has been competing in, and doing so well? As much as I would love to see him here, it SEEMS to me, Glen would be better served by staying there, and competing, then flying out with Paul T.
[QUOTE=Marigold;8724463]
On a recent episode of the Eventing Radio Show, Clark and Paul Tapner (who is long-listed with Prince Mayo for AUS, short list not yet announced) were comparing potential travel plans, as both are currently based in the UK. Going from memory here, but they were approximately as follows:
Clark and Glen: base in England --> ship by road to Belgium --> fly to New York (Google says just under 8 hours) --> quarantine --> ship to Hannah Sue’s in Virginia --> ship to Great Meadows and compete --> ship down to Ocala for training camp --> ship down to Miami (Google says just under 9 hours) --> fly to Rio.
Paul and Prince Mayo: base in England --> fly out of England to Rio (Google says 12 hours).
That is a substantial difference, to say the very least. Clark mentioned that it would be exciting to be home for the fourth of July for the first time in a while, but somehow I think that’s not enough to outweigh that difference.[/QUOTE]
I’m just going to point out that it might be a whopping 5-10 minutes from Hannah Sue’s farm to Great Meadows. So while the rest of it may be somewhat daunting, this one leg of the trip is more like the toenail on a pinky-toe of the trip.
I thought of this hypothetical.
Make a team of Jung’s last 4 scores on any of his horses at a CCI****. He’s a team onto itself.
Make a team of anyone - any country, their top 4 scores at a CCI****.
Would team of anyone have a chance?
[QUOTE=Larksmom;8727810]
Glen would be better served by staying there, and competing, then flying out with Paul T.[/QUOTE]
The US team would be better served by kidnapping Paul Tapner and forcing him into Team USA garb. He’s a fantastic rider.
(I’ll add that I like Clark very much and also that, for a time, he was tasked with doing dressage on one of my mares. The mare held dressage in contempt and could be quite intimidating to whoever was unlucky enough to attempt dressage on her. He did a very nice job and maintained a sense of humor about it.)
[QUOTE=JER;8725044]
Oh, that line again. 
I’m quite certain you wouldn’t mean it this way, but that line is usually trotted out to the common folk by the elites when they’re trying to make excuses for head-scratching behavior or poor results or both.
Condescension is just a rather ugly, desperate form of spin.
(There is currently a festival of this kind of talk going on in the UK following the Brexit vote and the Euro football humiliation. Both are cases of the elite being really, really, really out of touch.)
And yes, while we-don’t-know-blah-blah-blah, we’ve seen the results of the past decade and we’ve noticed that team medals (or any medals, actually) are lacking. I believe the US eventing team was a few points behind the great eventing nation of Japan at the 2012 games, and at WEG 2014, the US team couldn’t manage to crack the top 10. Oh my. You don’t need to know what goes on behind the scenes to know that those are terrible results.
Skepticism is genuinely earned here. I think the US eventing community would love to be proven wrong, to see that USEF eventing has a healthy program and a bright future, but much of what we do see just doesn’t inspire confidence.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t read it as condescending at all… In fact, recognizing that David O’Connor and the selectors are more knowledgeable about international travel, olympic performance, and Clark’s horse is actually probably the more humble perspective.
My impression from the riders (used to live in VA where a lot of them are based, rode with one of the alternates, and was a member of the eventing media/press scene for several years) and from David is that there’s a great deal more transparency with David as coach than there has been in the past.
But again, I don’t know the first thing about producing an olympic team.
[QUOTE=wanderlust;8727881]
I’m just going to point out that it might be a whopping 5-10 minutes from Hannah Sue’s farm to Great Meadows. So while the rest of it may be somewhat daunting, this one leg of the trip is more like the toenail on a pinky-toe of the trip.[/QUOTE]
It’s possible he’ll just trailer over and show out of the trailer. That’s what most of them did at the mandatory outing for Normandy. You’re right, definitely not something to be figured into the grand equation of travel.
[QUOTE=spencergbennett;8729137]
In fact, recognizing that David O’Connor and the selectors are more knowledgeable about international travel, olympic performance, and Clark’s horse is actually probably the more humble perspective. [/QUOTE]
But then what is it about a failed/failing program that deserves a deferential attitude? Especially considering that this failed/failing program solicits donations from the grassroots members several times per year. If anyone should be ‘humble’, maybe it’s those passing the hat, spending the cash, and promising great things.
The USEF eventing program has a very generous budget and very well-compensated staff. To give a sharp contrast from within the USEF, the combined drivers – combined driving is a USEF/FEI discipline but not an Olympic discipline – who are in the team for the world championships were given a travel stipend of $3500 to get their horses to Europe and prep for worlds. For support personnel, there’s a team manager going. The real costs of this venture run over $25,000 per driver, so drivers either have to be independently wealthy or raise funds. And yes, the drivers are well aware of the money given to the consistently underperforming eventing program.
As someone who coaches in a successful no-budget program in an Olympic sport, I don’t have it in me to be ‘humble’ to a program that’s so rich in resources yet so poor in results. I do hope they get it together at some point – I do think the riders put the effort in, but I think that coach-for-life regimes are detrimental to the success of most sports, and US eventing seems to fall into that category.
well then, short of slipping a mickey into the drinks of the entire German team, and throw in the Kiwis as well, what should we do? Fold our tents and go home? We shouldn’t bother to show up because whatever the reason we just aren’t good enough? Jung isn’t going to switch nationalities. We simply have to go on competing, taking clinics instead of teaching clinics?
I don’t know what we should do, but quitting and going home isn’t really the answer either.
I disagree with JER’s tone and accusations but this is old hat and I am not going there again, nor trying on that hat.
Larksmom, this is a sport and there are ups and downs, good phases, bad phases, and most in between. The Germans are terrific now and maybe not so in another decade or two.
Taking a snapshot view of our progress, then abandoning ship if I don’t like the picture, is just not my cup of tea.
Interesting how there are some posters who are prominent whenever there is an opportunity to create a dark cloud yet when things go well, they are silent.
I am supporting eventing as much as I can, given my limited resources and time. I will applaud those who finish and be proud of what we accomplish if we do accomplish at all. And if we don’t, I am not going to sit around talking about how our riders are overcompensated and provided all the means, because they are not. To say that is to say that we are a pile of lazy do-nothing, no-good slugs.
The logic implied is pretty darned clear cut.
Phooey!
[QUOTE=JER;8729339]
But then what is it about a failed/failing program that deserves a deferential attitude? Especially considering that this failed/failing program solicits donations from the grassroots members several times per year. If anyone should be ‘humble’, maybe it’s those passing the hat, spending the cash, and promising great things.
The USEF eventing program has a very generous budget and very well-compensated staff. To give a sharp contrast from within the USEF, the combined drivers – combined driving is a USEF/FEI discipline but not an Olympic discipline – who are in the team for the world championships were given a travel stipend of $3500 to get their horses to Europe and prep for worlds. For support personnel, there’s a team manager going. The real costs of this venture run over $25,000 per driver, so drivers either have to be independently wealthy or raise funds. And yes, the drivers are well aware of the money given to the consistently underperforming eventing program.
As someone who coaches in a successful no-budget program in an Olympic sport, I don’t have it in me to be ‘humble’ to a program that’s so rich in resources yet so poor in results. I do hope they get it together at some point – I do think the riders put the effort in, but I think that coach-for-life regimes are detrimental to the success of most sports, and US eventing seems to fall into that category.[/QUOTE]
Interesting, given that I remember one of the reasons given in the past for the US eventing team’s lack of recent international success was that they were underfunded compared to countries such as Germany and the U.K. which were said to receive large subusidies from the government for equestrian sports?
I honestly don’t know how the US’s funding compares to that of other countries… And of course there is more to a successful team than the amount of money you have. But which is it … Are we actually short on cash because of the lack of government funding, or was that just an excuse thrown around?
[QUOTE=Larksmom;8729473]
I don’t know what we should do, but quitting and going home isn’t really the answer either.[/QUOTE]
Where did the idea of quitting and going home come from? That would be more than a little strange.
However, a program can be reassessed and revamped if it’s not working. Sometimes it’s the specific competition or training emphasis that needs changing, sometimes personnel need to be replaced.
Unconditional love is probably not a solution to the longterm lack of success in US eventing but just in case, maybe we should also keep the USEF HP Program in our prayers, too.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8729493]
Taking a snapshot view of our progress, then abandoning ship if I don’t like the picture, is just not my cup of tea. [/QUOTE]
A lack of success over many years is hardly a ‘snapshot’. Team bronze in Athens was 12 years ago. Maybe your snapshot doesn’t include fiascos like WEG 2014, where the selectors sent two horses that they doubted would get around (both didn’t). I didn’t like hearing that well before WEG – there’s something deeply cynical about that, and it’s also rather ugly in that a less-than-capable horse really shouldn’t be put in that kind of competitive situation.
German funding is a mix of public and private. UK sport funding is largely via the National Lottery, and then based on results in the sport. If results targets are not met, funding is cut, sometimes drastically – and no one forgets this for even a fraction of a second. At international competitions, the Team GB athletes and staff are rather on edge (I’m talking about several different sports here, in U17, junior and senior), because they know they need to get results or else. Having seen this up close with young athletes, I’m not necessarily a fan of this rather cutthroat system that results in much tension, infighting and lack of enjoyment in sport. I’m not sure any victory is worth that.
I don’t really have any insight into the US’s lack of success in eventing, except that some on-form combinations seem to have been passed over for more established riders, and this hasn’t worked in the US’s favor. Yes, it’s all a bit of a gamble, deciding who’s in a team and who’s not, but if your goal is success, repeated poor results require a focused re-think of what’s gone before.
I have to agree with many people that experience matters. Yes, Boyd has not placed 1st recently, but he has put in many seconds. Boyd is a very consistent and steady rider placing wise, consistently placing in the top 3. As for Maya Black, I think that she is a fantastic rider and a great choice for reserve!
Ib a slightly different note,. read the COTH article about the sale of five or six Dutch international horses–maybe all jumpers. A Dutch journalist came up with a scheme where individuals could invest in a fund for buying (and competing?)
horses for Dutch riders–sort of like a syndicate but open to the public. Now the horses are to be sold and the fund started over again after the original investors have shared in the sales prices.
I don’t know why we couldn’t have something similar in the United States for eventing. One of the horses to be sold is Zenith who competed at London for the Dutch.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/sfn-announces-sale-six-horses-including-zenith-nop
http://sfnauction.com/ Take a look at the SFN philosophy page.
WD, it sounded [to me] like you were dressing me down, while you were agreeing with me?
I have been following eventing more or less, since 1978. Hope springs eternal. We will be missing several top competitors. A Nicholson has not made the team, and the Kiwis are STILL awesome. WFP looks like he may not be ready to go.
SOMEDAY Mikke will have a bad day. Maybe Lauren or Clark will pull off the ride of their lives. Hopefully Boyd and Phillip will do decent upper-half-of-the-field dressage tests, and can hold or improve their positions.
Now this is a bit crazy but hopefully the bad fall might have given Boyd a bit of a wake up call.
I am a cynical old bee eye itch, but I still have hopes that our team will work their hearts out for us, and we will be proud of them.
There is probably still a disadvantage in having to fly over to compete, but it looks like it has finally benefited Clark. How many Show jumpers have moved to Europe?
A final point, most of the Aussies, Kiwis and even Brazilians have moved to the UK. Fortunately for us, PD and BM chose to come here. They are much farther away, and chose to start life over up here.
An old trainer told me
not that practice makes perfect, but that perfect practice makes perfect.
Larksmom, I did not intend to dress you down at all, and was just pointing out something, I do not recall what, and maybe I put your name at the beginning and then went off on a tangent unrelated to what I thought I was going to say because, well, that happens more often around Happy Hour or that’s my story and I’m sticking to it:D.
[QUOTE=spencergbennett;8729139]
It’s possible he’ll just trailer over and show out of the trailer. That’s what most of them did at the mandatory outing for Normandy. You’re right, definitely not something to be figured into the grand equation of travel.[/QUOTE] I believe it’s an FEI event, so they’ll have to be on the grounds. Which is neither here nor there, it’s still so close that it’s not worth mentioning.
[QUOTE=wanderlust;8729877]
I believe it’s an FEI event, so they’ll have to be on the grounds. Which is neither here nor there, it’s still so close that it’s not worth mentioning.[/QUOTE]
Those rules changed (although maybe changed back) but for CIC events they do not have to be stabled on grounds. Not sure if it is the organizers choice but I know a few times where people didn’t stable.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8730124]
Those rules changed (although maybe changed back) but for CIC events they do not have to be stabled on grounds. Not sure if it is the organizers choice but I know a few times where people didn’t stable.[/QUOTE]
I’ll corroborate that, as I trailered in and out of Great Meadow when I competed there last year. Was very grateful to have done so when the tent blew over Saturday night! Stabling is extremely tight and limited there, I’m certain the organizers would be happy to have fewer horses stabled on grounds if they can stable locally.
I agree with JER.
The US is right now at the stage that Germany was before Hanz Melzer and his stuff took over. Not bad, individual chances, some time, but never really knoking on the door.
They hired a coach Hanz Melzer who understood the potential of the riders and horses and understood if there was not a drastic change how to nuture those talents, than it would be just the same ol same ol and he would get eventually fired, as the guy before him and the guy before that guy.
Just changing the coach, with out a changing a failed system is not going to do the trick and every dime spent is a waste.
Not only did Melzer bring in a stuff of payed coaches, best known is Barthels, who by the way is a Brit, but he completely changed the pipe line.
The work done with up coming riders is the main reason for the strength. The work done on the youth level to produce up coming riders. It goes all the way down to the ponies. The base, today, is incredible broad. Mind you, Eventing is a honest side show sport in the public eye. Michael Jungs triple, what a feat, never showed up in any major publication in Germany. That he is the most successful athlete of his time in Germany, hardly anybody knows.
It is concerning public recognition maybe a 4th class sport, with the stigma of animal abuse. It is not as low as in the US, but very low, despite the Gold Medals and the World championships…
What Melzer and Barthels accomplished was only possible by turning the old System up side down.
Take some of the best riders today. Klimke, Hoy for example. They were good, not bad but good. Top 10. Even here on the board hardly anybody took them serious. How they developed, with all the ups and downs. Take a Jung, a super talent that was finely honed, for quiet some time at 2 - 3 star CIC and CCI till he finaly got his place on the team, instant champion. Or the famous dentist, puff here I am and champion. Nutured, seeing talents, developing a broad base, developing talents, matching them with horses and so on and so on. It is a full time job, you can not go and design courses or run your own business, it can not be one of many balls you have in the game.
Not today, because the others play at a completely different level and have a one job dedicated head coach, with a dedicated stuff and several for hire coaches, like Barthels, under contract.
It is a multy million dollar business today and you can not run it, as its top manager, as a part time job, as it was possible 30 years ago.
In my eyes the US have to find somebody and pay accordingly, a fulltime coach/manager, who understands how to broaden the base, bring up talents, give them responsibility, nuture the good talents already present and bring them to their full potential. Hire outside coaches and experts, when ever needed and so on.
What we have seen in Eventing and its investment for the future, has been investments into the bottom. Broadening the base of paying customers, not a bad idea. Look at the insanity of classes below Prelim. Its Wal Mart.
But despite of broadening that base, it has not produced a broader base of talent.
Why, the US has no system, worth a dam, to dip in this huge pool it created to find the talents and than help them to go past prelim and so on. It is a stagnant pool and the broader it gets the more stagnant it gets.
Prove me wrong, but there is no country that has so many low level classes as the US and such a hard time to compet at the very top.
Its not the fault of the low levels, but of the management/coach, to develop a system that brings the potential good ones, to the next level and than drag them to the next.
Other sports, like the one Jer does, have basicly no money, no sponsors, a very small pool, have to find multi talents, keep them, encourage some talents to cross over, from more popular sports, hers is as ours a multi discipline sport, even more diverse, 5 different sports. Eventing should take a look, it can only learn, how it is done.
If US eveting continues like this, it will become a none factor in international eventing, even more than it is today. Like the sledge team from Jamaica
Gnep, this is NOT in response to your very interesting post, which I’m way too tired to appreciate in full after stacking lots of hay.
What I will say is that I live in a part of the country that roots for the Red Sox. No matter how dismal things look. Therefore I quite understand supporting an eventing team that just doesn’t quite gel. Because when you’re surprised it is oh so sweet.:lol:
