Every Colt in Germany is free jumped at 2. The Holsteiners Hengstkorung is when they are 2.5 yrs old. Same with most German studs. There is no risk in putting a 2 year old through a free jump shoot a couple of times. This is done at 2 because you need to know who to geld and who to keep in tact before the summer turn out. You can’t keep them all in tact until 3. Its not economical.
Tim
The American Eventing team has become a joke. They don’t have good enough horses, and they focus too much on XC and not enough on the other 2 disciplines. If you have a horse that ranks top ten after dressage phase, and goes clear stadium, then a few faults in XC won’t keep you out of the ribbons. Most eventers will never jump more than 1.3m. Jumpers bred for 1.6m can be evaluated early enough in free jumping to rule out most. Sure there are exceptions, but too slow, no scope, poor technique behind, lack of willingness can all be evaluated by free jumping. The rest of the world has moved away from straight TB’s for Eventing, and are kicking our but on the world stage. The reason for this is they are winning in Dressage and Jumping, and are good enough in XC. Ask Michael Jung if he free jumps his prospects, and he will tell you that he does. If you are going to buy upper level horses as a 2 year old, you need to evaluate them, and that includes free jumping.
Tim
Most professionals aren’t buying babies. Or two year olds. Buying babies is for people who want to develop on their own or are poor.
We aren’t just getting our butts kicked internationally, the heart of our program for a decade is two Australian ex-pats.
I would agree that most aren’t, but that is changing quite rapidly. I know of 3 Olympic Eventers personally here in the states that are doing just that. Times are a changing, and I agree with your Aussie Ex-Pats statement. Boyd and Philipp have been our lead string for awhile. However, some new hopefuls are coming up the ranks. They need better horses if they are going to compete. They don’t want to compete financially with the Dressage and Jumper people who are willing to put down much more money for a 5-6 prospect than most Eventers. Their best option is to get them before they are picked through.
Tim
TUpper level riders are buying young horses, but mostly in Ireland from what I can tell. I think they think the horses come with free leprechaun dust.
i also would not rule out a horse with poor front technique in its green efforts. I was always taught that what you look for, and what you can tell in the free jump chute, is hind end technique proclivities. I can say I have never seen anything with a truly awful hind end technique in the chute grow up to have a Brilliant follow through behind. Maybe it happens but it isn’t common. But I was raised in jumper barns. There are lots of terrific exercises to improve the front end. The hind is much less fixable.
I have seen seen some eventers willing to jump horses with awful front end technique over Prelim and up, which I consider truly unsafe. True knee hangers, the kind you can’t even get a decent photo of because they hang all.the.time. I like living more than that! If they aren’t fixed by Prelim it isn’t happening. I get being invested in a horse, but switch to dressage or jumpers or something likely to fall down (other than the horse) when they catch those knees.
Eh, well they can see dozens of horses in a short amount of time there, all can be seen jumping and many youngsters will have been to a competition or hunting. The prices compared to the US are very low, and they breed from horses with competition results as a rule, too. So if that’s leprechaun dust, sign me up!
I also think a lot get sucked in by horse sellers. I have seen a number of extremely green horses come over that don’t move particularly well, for not cheap prices. Many US buyers don’t get that Irish horse traders wear the leprechaun dust in the seat of their pants, and the horses are basically dead green/barely broke. They are great at the sellers’ place because they prep them effectively, don’t move the jumps, and the horses are basically on autopilot for the tryout because they jump the same course every single day for months. It happens WAY more than anyone wants to admit.
it is much cheaper to produce a horse across the pond, which the US needs to deal with if they want to be competitive.
but the top prospects in Europe are as pricey if not more pricey than here. The average WB is cheaper there but a top prospect sells for very good money. I also think the buyers are also more educated there…here people will pay a premium for anything WB that is cute, there it actually needs to have some quality to command a top price. They have a lot of WBs I wouldn’t take over an OTTB, but US buyers will fly over and snap them up, and think they got a bargain.
I agree with you that an Irish broke horse may need a restart and you must have your wits about you over there (I used to live there) 
Even the ones with a bit more experience are still cheaper than in the US though. You can get a 6-8yo horse who has gone Training/Prelim nicely for 10-15k sterling.
Here I just saw a barely started 3 yo for $20k that didn’t show much scope, a 5 yo with a spotty record at Novice who seller said would hit the wall at P offered at $40k, a 6 yo with zero competition exp and a rearing and stopping issue for $25k, and a 14 yo who has gone Prelim with “maybe a year left at that height” reduced to $25k. (Yeah, your OTTBs are cheaper. And used hard at 2.)
Yes - it is cheaper to produce horses there - by a long shot. If I throw in import fees, I get a better horse across the pond for the same $.
There is SOO much that I disagree with you. But my Point was exactly similar…OP is talking about a buying a Prelim eventer. That does NOT need a top level jumper. It doesn’t even need a 1.3 jumper. That’s my point. Most reasonably athletic horses can jump that height.
It has NOTHING to do with US high performance. And you are wrong about TBs. I’ve spoken with top riders NOT in the USA and they want full or close to full TB for event horses still. This is NOT 1.6 show jumping. This is eventing. Galloping is still important and what they want is an all around athlete. If they are that scopey, we sell them as Show jumpers. And no…most are NOT buying baby horses …not even from Ireland. Most wait until you have them at least 5 or 6 and competing (typically already running Prelim)… AND they don’t give a crap about seeing them free jump. They want to see them jump under saddle, including xc, and see them do a bit of flat work. They are generally not looking at unstarted. The few that do care more then about what the parents did…again. Most don’t really care about free jumping except people presenting to stud books or running horses through an auction and then often those horses are so over schooled that it ends up meaning nothing but a viral video.
I am aware that they free jump at 2 in Germany. Every racing TB in the US is started as a yearling. Just because something is common doesn’t mean it is what is best for a horse.
Not just in Germany, everywhere. I think you need to stick to your discipline, because you are speaking of things you don’t understand.
We will just have to disagree on this point. The riders I was talking about are team riders based in the UK and Ireland looking for 4* horses or international team horses. They WANT full TB but are often stuck riding WBs. The ideal WBs they want are actually 80% or higher TB blood (one I know was 100%) even though they had a WB brand. I don’t breed TBs because I can buy a better quality TB off the track (or directly from race Breeders). They were incredibly jealous of the quality of OTTB we have here in the US. I can not afford the stud fees on the good TB sires which make even the most expensive WB stud fee look cheap. But I have connections and get quality TBs that have people dying to get a hold of them. I don’t market them until we are already running above Prelim because honestly…most US buyers are so uneducated in looking at young prospects that they have no idea what it takes. I have people working with me who have produced multiple horses up to 4* (now 5*). Top event horses are NOT bred. They are produced. This is NOT the same as specialized sports like show jumping or dressage. The horse we need needs to be a good athletic horses withe a trainable brain, brave and confident and good gallop. That is not the same as a SJ. And more than 50% of it is how you train and produce them.
That is why most pros look at older horses. A few work with Breeders to help get the type they like to ride…but a top event horse is a jack of all trades. Not a jumping or dressage specialtist.
I don’t want to gallop down to a 3’7" jump on a horse who finds that their limit: I’ve owned horses like that and no way would I take them T, let alone P.
Also, looking at results from last year in my area, over 75% of the entrants at Prelim had time faults. So obviously it’s more than just jumping 3’7".
Also there were 2 divisions of 19 people at that event: 38 riders And in Training? 6 divisions - about 114 riders. So if any reasonably scopy horse can go prelim, why the huge drop off (almost a 70% drop in numbers) after Training?
I
Because it’s abou the riders. You have to have a minimum skill level. At Prem and up… you do actually have to ride a bit. Even on a super scopey horse. They will not constantly save your butt. It’s also why the Prelim packers are HARD to find. Same as with the H/J with the move up to 3’6. In the US…most riders did not grow up jumping at those heights and struggle to get comfortable at those levels to the point that they are not giving their horses terrible rides.
you see a similar drop off in jumpers and it isn’t because its hard to find a horse capable of jumping 1.1m. It’s harder to find a horse willing to jump well at that height with an incompetent monkey on its back … and why those packers that are willing to do so cost a mint to buy.
and personallly its speed and time in the saddle. I can easily and safely jump around Training level on most horses with no fitness work for my self or my horse (if a TB). But at Prelim…I need to be riding more than 3x a week and be fitter cardo wise myself to last the entire xc well. And speed for the horses jumps up quite a bit. Most TBs can easily make the time and need little fitness at that level but others start needing good conditioning work.
eta: I’m speaking from experience. I’ve personally developed multi horses up to Prelim (where I did all the riding). I own even more including more than one Advanced and several Intermediate horses right now (not all I started but Few I did). It is not hard at all to find horses more than capable for those levels but it DOES take some level of skill to ride at those levels and MORE skill to develop one to that level. One of my current horses that I did most of the primary work on is an OTTB I got as a 4 year old off the track…they are more my type of ride.
I remember Boyd jumped him for me once when he was green and said the horse had more scope than most of his 4* horses. I said good. For me to ride at 2* I wanted a horse with 4* scope. So I do understand it. This horse is a pet for me and fun to ride…but NO way does he have the scope of SJ that I grew up starting. He’s a good event horse. But he isn’t even the best jumper that I’ve ever owned…and I own several more right now with more scope. But he’s still a good event horse and fun for me to ride. I’m letting a pro compete him now as it takes a lot of skill to develop thema and I’m getting old and busy with my non horse career. He will hopefully do a 3* (now 4*) this year. I will let him get rock solid then perhaps he can help me out around a few 2*s and until then, I’ll put the base on some youngsters.
Again…for eventing, the harder part is training and development of these horses. Not their athletic level. Finding And training one to be good in all three phases…while race horse fit… and keeping them sound. THAT is the hard part. And where you need the blood and the heavy TB influence will be at Advanced…the 3 and 4*(now 4 and 5*) levels. A lot of full WB types can be very competitive at the 1 and 2* level. But it’s takes a very unique one to make it to the true higher levels of eventing without a lot of blood up close (Prelim and 1* is not UL eventing). It more an issue of keeping them sound with all the conditioning than speed. Andrew N has done an ok job with it but even he would say it is much easier with a TB or higher blood percentage horse. He has a very heavy conditioning program that he starts quite young with his full WBs and only a limited few cut it.
Pretty much every jumper breeder starts free jumping their youngsters at around 2 or shortly thereafter. If it is done properly, it does not negatively impact the development and/or future soundness. I believe that future soundness has more to do with genetics and how they are developed once under saddle.
LOL. And I think you need to check your attitude. Not EVERYONE does this and I’ve never really limited myself to just one discipline.
Again, the fact that something may be commonly done by some people (wherever they may be located;)) doesn’t make it good for the horse.
I don’t need to check my attitude, you were trying to draw a moral equivalence between starting yearlings under saddle and running them hard and free jumping a 2 year old through a chute a few times a week. It added zero to the conversation. Freejumping 2 year olds done by some of the best horseman in the world. They know that it doesn’t do any harm but allows you evaluate what you bred, because breeders need to k ow what they bred as early as possible because they need to k ow if they will breed the mare back. It didn’t shorten any horses career, unlike your comparative TB lack of horsemanship. So my direct response to your post was designed to highlight what I think your post showed to be a shortage of experience in this area.
RyTimMick,
jumping/running/using the horse early helps to see potential and rule out the “weak” . However, you have to have the stomach for it - ie ok with damaging/discarding those that do not make it at a young age. Europe, for the most part, has a very robust horse meat industry with no qualms about it. US is not in the same boat, therefore much more risk averse with our horses.
I would disagree with you from a veterinary standpoint that jumping a young (2yr old) several times a week is a good idea, especially a stall kept youngster.
Hi MZM, the purpose of the Free jumping is not only to weed out the bad, but also to know who to cut, and what breeding crosses not to repeat. What the US fails to address with a robust meat market, we address with a robust low ammy market. We don’t need to throw them out, we just sell them for cheaper, or make them up for a Hunter or Eventer.
As far as free jumping, this should not be done several times a week with a stall bound 2 year old that has not had any fitness. I am talking about few times over a month, and only a few times through the chute each time. So someone who has be doing this for many years, and have never had one have one with issues, I would say there is no risk. I also know how much work a youngster can do, and I don’t lunge my 2 years in a circle over and over again, which I see all the time. So this is a straw man argument in my opinion.
Tim
Off topic, but as a buyer I avoid buying a stall kept youngster.
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