US sellers won't freejump?

[Xanthoria]

I’m searching for a new eventer with scope for at least Prelim. I’m from the UK and used to seeing youngsters put through a chute a couple times to give an idea of scope, jumping form, bravery and attitude, but find this very difficult to get in the US.

In the UK/EU, all sellers will supply photos or video of greenies jumping 3-4’ if they are being marketed as jumpers/eventers. In the US, the same purported caliber of horse might be doing a grid at 2’-2’6" if it’s under saddle.

Sellers of horses 3-4 years old who are unbacked or very green obviously can’t show a horse jumping even a single jump up to height under saddle, but when asked very often won’t supply a video or even freejump it in my presence, even if I offer to help build the chute and take it down. Somehow I have to take their word that it jumped 4’ once, or their word (or a paper pedigree) that it WILL go Prelim.

Obviously, nobody has a crystal ball - saying a horse WILL go prelim is iffy at best. And we don’t ride the pedigree - while it’s a requirement for me that the parents have a competition career (have jump, stayed sound) at the end of the day, the individual horse’s ability and training is what makes it happen. So why not show what a horse can do?

Are sellers just not used to freejumping? Worried they will damage their greenie? Are they able to sell green or unbacked jumpers on spec, allowing the buyer to take a financial leap of faith? Perhaps I am looking in the wrong places, or not rich enough!

[Majestic_Gaits]

That is strange. What age are you looking at? I’ve never heard anyone selling a jumper that wouldn’t free jump them.

[Xanthoria]

3+ yrs. I’ve just had a seller give no reason but decline to freejump a 4 yr old horse I’m flying to see. And when I ask for freejump videos from online ads, I’m very often told no by US sellers. No facilities, too worried about horse getting hurt, all sorts of excuses. So, no sale. Maybe it’s eventers?

[Jealoushe]

My friend said the same thing when she looked at a yearling. The seller was shocked she wanted to see it free jumped. She just wanted to see its form over one or two jumps…I guess it is not common.

[ladyj79]

Depends on the seller. Breeders and dealers (of which we have many) certainly do free jump, but more amateur folks aren’t likely to have the skill or set up, and I know a few pros who don’t and have their reasons. I suggest moving on as there are more sellers than not in the US who can offer what you are seeking, better than pondering the few who can’t or won’t.

[NoDQhere]

We free jump them all. Along with giving you a pretty good idea of scope and ability, it also gives a good indication of temperament and character.

[clanter]

that is how we found our daughter’s horse could jump, we kept finding him in the paddock with one mare, daughter thought I was putting in there and I thought she was …then we saw him clear jump the nearly five foot fence

[horseshorseshorseshorses]

I only look at US breeders who freejump their young stock. I also put a lot into how they are jumped. One Ca breeder I looked into had lovely horses but they ran their babies at the fences with racing blinders on. All the horses looked a bit frantic and turned me off to them.

I want the horses to look calm, interested, forward and happy going through the shoot.

[RyTimMick]

Hi, I am not sure what others do, but I free jump every 2 year old in my barn here and in Germany. I will challenge your statement on picking horses out of sport mothers. Most of the best sport horses in the world come from career broodmares including the Worlds #1 Eventing sire 4 years in a row, Contendro I. I would much rather have one from a Career broodmare with proven production. Many 3-4* eventers have come out of our barn, and not a one from a sport mare.

Tim

[Xanthoria]

Well Tim the dams I often see have had a short and disastrous career at the low level claiming races, and I’d much prefer a career broodmare from approved lines…

[fordtraktor]

@RyTimMick

Hi, I am not sure what others do, but I free jump every 2 year old in my barn here and in Germany. I will challenge your statement on picking horses out of sport mothers. Most of the best sport horses in the world come from career broodmares including the Worlds #1 Eventing sire 4 years in a row, Contendro I. I would much rather have one from a Career broodmare with proven production. Many 3-4* eventers have come out of our barn, and not a one from a sport mare.

Tim

Yes, when I bought a young horse as a weanling, I chose one with a nice canter and whose mom has a record as a successful producer of FEI jumpers. I adore my filly at 3.5.

Who knows what level any of them will do or if they will get hurt, etc., but having a strong history of jumping sport production certainly stacks the deck in your favor.

i would not consider even a good racing career relevant to jumping sport myself. What produces success is so different conformationally. Just as I wouldn’t consider a world champion Reiner to be a likely producer of great jumpers either.

if they won’t freejump an older prospect (2 and up) they don’t sound very serious about selling. Even an ammy like me could make that happen pretty quick as long as the arena isn’t frozen.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Honestly…as both a breeder and event rider (and buyer of young horses)…eventing to Preliminary is not really a high level in eventing. Most average athletic horses can do that level. It’s more about the rider and the training. I don’t typically free jump my horses. I can but probably wouldn’t bother as I think it has limited value of giving you information… especially for an event horse. So I’ve not invested in a set up that makes it easy to do. It’s not going to tell you if the horse will jump ditches, water and banks. I just don’t get that impressed with free jumping as I’ve seen far too many not jump the same with a rider so I find it of limited value. So as a buyer, most that I buy I don’t see any free jump videos. And I’ve yet to buy a young horse or fresh OTTB that didn’t get to prelim (and several have gone beyond) when we put the training into them other than the few who had pasture injuries.

So in this sample of one…since I see the limited value of free jumping for an event horse, I’m not as likely to take a buyer as seriously if the sale hinges on it. But I’m not offended by someone who asks for it. Just giving you the viewpoint of another eventer.

[Dressagelvr]

I wouldn’t ever free jump anything under the age of 3. But, I do free jump everything over 3. And mine are dressage horses.

Jumping is great cross training and free jumping is a great way to start.

I can’t imagine that someone selling jumper prospects wouldn’t free jump their 3+ year olds.

[buschkn]

We free jump all of ours usually starting lightly at 2yo and then a couple times per year until they are under saddle. And I absolutely disagree that it doesn’t correlate with jumping under saddle. I’ve had a lot of young horses and they nearly always jump the same or similar with a rider as loose. We’ve found it to be very informative.

[Xanthoria]

@bornfreenowexpensive

Honestly…as both a breeder and event rider (and buyer of young horses)…eventing to Preliminary is not really a high level in eventing. Most average athletic horses can do that level. It’s more about the rider and the training. I don’t typically free jump my horses. I can but probably wouldn’t bother as I think it has limited value of giving you information… especially for an event horse. So I’ve not invested in a set up that makes it easy to do. It’s not going to tell you if the horse will jump ditches, water and banks. I just don’t get that impressed with free jumping as I’ve seen far too many not jump the same with a rider so I find it of limited value. So as a buyer, most that I buy I don’t see any free jump videos.

I’ve been able to reject horses that jumped over their shoulders thanks to freejumping - a trait that I’ve seen carry over to under saddle work, and certainly not a horse I’d want to go xc on. And seeing a youngster that thinks its way through a mistake freejumping, or pukes out and gets easily overwhelmed, is another useful piece of information that tell you a lot about heart. It’s not everything, but it’s better than nothing at all. There must be a reason it’s so common in other very successful eventing/jumping nations, too.

[Daventry]

@Jealoushe

My friend said the same thing when she looked at a yearling. The seller was shocked she wanted to see it free jumped. She just wanted to see its form over one or two jumps…I guess it is not common.

I think it entirely depends on the seller. We deal almost strictly in hunters and jumpers and there is no way I would ever free jump a yearling. I “might” free jump one as a late two year olds but we normally do not free jump our youngstock until they are three. The other thing to consider is the seller. Setting up a proper free jumping chute takes some work and knowledge. If the seller only has a dressage background or no access to appropriate free jumping equipment, it might not be possible to set up a chute and free jump.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Xanthoria

I’ve been able to reject horses that jumped over their shoulders thanks to freejumping - a trait that I’ve seen carry over to under saddle work, and certainly not a horse I’d want to go xc on. And seeing a youngster that thinks its way through a mistake freejumping, or pukes out and gets easily overwhelmed, is another useful piece of information that tell you a lot about heart. It’s not everything, but it’s better than nothing at all. There must be a reason it’s so common in other very successful eventing/jumping nations, too.

And I’ve know many who initially jumped over their shoulders as green horses or free jumping who went on to the highest levels of eventing and two became GP jumpers and one a top open speed horse. And others that jumped in great form free jumping but ended up lacking in scope with a rider. So it all about your experience. Again…Prelim eventing is just not a difficult level. You need to care most about the brain and whether they are a good fit for you. If they have a decent canter and are an average athlete…they should get to that level assuming they have a decent brain and you do decent training.

or save your money and buy a going horse…then you will know for sure the type of ride they are and that they will do Xc

[EventerAJ]

I tend to agree with BFNE. I enjoy free jumping my horses, I think it’s fun for them and I like using it to introduce the concept of jumping without a rider involved, so the horse can think for itself. It’s a small part of training and about as useful for evaluation as a horse psychic (sometimes it’s right, sometimes it’s not). It’s always exciting to “test out the new toys” and see a glimpse of scope or Wowza technique. I think there are things you (and the horse!) can learn from a jump chute, but it can be subtle and EASILY manipulated into a misleading video.

I have had excellent jumping horses, who look like hanging-leg donkeys in a 30-second free-jump video where they ran past the distances and clunked through the poles placed too close together… I also have had a “star” who in two passes down the lane looked like a sure-fire upper level prospect…in reality he has good form, but little ambition, and would rather top out at training level. Given enough materials (!) I can build and tweak a chute, have helpers, and heavily edit a video, to make most horses look attractive to buyers in a brief clip. I’ve also watched lots of yahoos with a cell phone camera chase poor animals over lopsided stacked buckets and make the horse look terrible. I can learn nearly as much about a green prospect from a conformation photo and pedigree, as I can from an average online free jump video.

When jumping my own horses, I observe what a horse’s natural tendencies are-- especially when adding new filler under oxers-- and I like to see how the horse improves over time, perhaps a year later. Free jumping can build good confidence in some horses, but others just learn to rush through it and get careless. I had a young mare who was initially brilliant in the chute, but quickly became a hard-core rusher. I asked Robin Walker (of USEA Future Event Horse) what I should do…he said honestly, don’t free jump her any more, it’s not doing her any favors!

[enjoytheride]

I’ve seen plenty of talented riders nursing horses around prelim on will and talent but the same horse with an average rider would flip over a fence in a second.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@enjoytheride

I’ve seen plenty of talented riders nursing horses around prelim on will and talent but the same horse with an average rider would flip over a fence in a second.

Then you are seeing a lot of incompetence and that isn’t what I typically see at most of the events that I attend. I’ve brought multiple horses up to prelim from scratch or fresh off the track. Most within 2 years of training (unless their age caused me to take my time) and a couple within one year. It’s not that hard to find a horse very competent for the jumping. Finding one that can do all three phase well and be competitive is harder. Dressage typically takes them a bit longer and most of the best xc horses are not always that competitive in the sandbox. Finding a horse that will go advanced with an average rider is much harder.

And finding and producing a competitive packer for prelim is harder. But Prelim is called Prelim because it is NOT a high level.