Thank you, Guillerme. I appreciate you taking the time to read the statute and reaspond here. as you said, what is says is what matters.
if the ASBs and Morgan lose some crazy shoeing packages that will be too bad, as they are not sored…but if it frees up the TWH from those contraptions, I’m all for it.
A little OT, but I wanted to say that no, stacked pads are not therapeutic on trotters. Single, wedge, and rim pads are, as is silpak and the pour-in gel.
IMO chains work the same way on trotters, though some say that they function more like weights at the gym. I disagree with this because they bounce and rub on the fetlocks, and I’ve seen them used in stalls with trailing chains to discourage kicking. Edited to add: obviously no one is using trailing chains for training, but it seems that the part that goes around the fetlocks acts in a similar fashion.
Leather cuffs or fleecey leather cuffs are sometimes used instead, and those may provide more “weight” and less irritation - I am not sure.
Chains work on the horse’s natural instinct to “step out” of whatever is caught around its ankle. The action of stepping higher provides a greater range of motion workout for the horse, thus benefiting the horse’s joints and muscles. A non sored horse will get used to the sensation after a few minutes and stop trying to shake the chain off of their ankle. This is why you’ll only see Saddlebreds warm up in chains. After 5 minutes or so, they come off because they stop working. A sore horse will never get used to the chain on their ankle and will constantly try to step out of it. This is why they show in them - the sensation is constant when coupled with the soring agents.
Can chains be used in such a manner as to cause a non sored horse pain? Certainly. So can spurs and bits. But a responsible trainer will only use them for the purpose I stated above - to give the horse a greater workout - and not to hurt them. Every single Saddlebred trainer I’ve ever worked with will STOP using chains or cuffs on the horse if there is even the slightest rub mark - nevermind an actual open sore. Honestly I’ve never EVER seen chains cause sores. Ever. They just don’t. The sores you see on those walking horses are from the chemicals - not the chains.
I have an IR camera. I have worked my horse in chains and taken heat images up to 4 hours post workout. I have worked that same horse in just bell boots and taken the same images. There is no more heat caused by a light pair of chains, properly used, than a pair of flopping bell boots. In fact, the heat is in a much larger area from the bell boots and it lasts slightly longer, so my instinct is to think that bell boots are probably more irritating. And my horse gets hair rubs from any pair of bell boots he’s ever worn, but never from chains.
It’s very easy to assume chains are evil. Because, chains. Not butterfly wings. Not cotton balls. Chains. But really, folks, it’s the same argument when you’re talking to a person who believes all bits are evil because horses shouldn’t have metal in their mouth with a person pulling on it. You know very well that properly used bits don’t cause pain, you use bits all the time, and you would IMMEDIATELY recognize and alleviate any discomfort the horse would have from wearing a bit. Saddlebred trainers are the same. They know how to use chains correctly, they know they don’t hurt the horse because they know the signs of pain, and they never WANT to hurt the horse because that defeats the purpose of what wins in the show ring.
And the trailing chains are kicking chains used by EVERY breed. They are not unique to high stepping breeds and do absolutely nothing in terms of changing a horse’s way of going. So don’t even bring those into the discussion. That’s just ignorant and trying to make something you don’t understand into something evil because it’s fun to do so.
Done. Thank you for posting the link.
[QUOTE=Tiffani B;8792732]
Chains work on the horse’s natural instinct to “step out” of whatever is caught around its ankle. The action of stepping higher provides a greater range of motion workout for the horse, thus benefiting the horse’s joints and muscles. A non sored horse will get used to the sensation after a few minutes and stop trying to shake the chain off of their ankle. This is why you’ll only see Saddlebreds warm up in chains. After 5 minutes or so, they come off because they stop working. A sore horse will never get used to the chain on their ankle and will constantly try to step out of it. This is why they show in them - the sensation is constant when coupled with the soring agents.
Can chains be used in such a manner as to cause a non sored horse pain? Certainly. So can spurs and bits. But a responsible trainer will only use them for the purpose I stated above - to give the horse a greater workout - and not to hurt them. Every single Saddlebred trainer I’ve ever worked with will STOP using chains or cuffs on the horse if there is even the slightest rub mark - nevermind an actual open sore. Honestly I’ve never EVER seen chains cause sores. Ever. They just don’t. The sores you see on those walking horses are from the chemicals - not the chains.
I have an IR camera. I have worked my horse in chains and taken heat images up to 4 hours post workout. I have worked that same horse in just bell boots and taken the same images. There is no more heat caused by a light pair of chains, properly used, than a pair of flopping bell boots. In fact, the heat is in a much larger area from the bell boots and it lasts slightly longer, so my instinct is to think that bell boots are probably more irritating. And my horse gets hair rubs from any pair of bell boots he’s ever worn, but never from chains.
It’s very easy to assume chains are evil. Because, chains. Not butterfly wings. Not cotton balls. Chains. But really, folks, it’s the same argument when you’re talking to a person who believes all bits are evil because horses shouldn’t have metal in their mouth with a person pulling on it. You know very well that properly used bits don’t cause pain, you use bits all the time, and you would IMMEDIATELY recognize and alleviate any discomfort the horse would have from wearing a bit. Saddlebred trainers are the same. They know how to use chains correctly, they know they don’t hurt the horse because they know the signs of pain, and they never WANT to hurt the horse because that defeats the purpose of what wins in the show ring.
And the trailing chains are kicking chains used by EVERY breed. They are not unique to high stepping breeds and do absolutely nothing in terms of changing a horse’s way of going. So don’t even bring those into the discussion. That’s just ignorant and trying to make something you don’t understand into something evil because it’s fun to do so.[/QUOTE]
Truthfully, I have zero problems with the chains. It’s not a training method I would employ myself, but I don’t think it’s exceptionally cruel, not even how they leave them on all the time with BL horses.
Even the application of caustic chemicals, while I find morally wrong, is not the biggest problem here IMO.
It’s the shoeing packages I find disgusting. Because they are not temporary: the horse has to live stacked and banded 24/7 while in training. It’s a true testament to the resiliency and tolerance of the TWH breed to watch them adapt to life in those gawd awful things. Anyone who can watch a horse live like that and convince themselves the horse’s quality of life is not negatively impacted is delusional. When a horse has to retrain themselves how to stand, walk, move, put their head down, lie down, just for the sake of the show ring??? That is appalling.
Signed. I’m all for protective and theraputic, but stacks of pads for “action” and bands to hold the package on? The benefit to the horses is nonexistent…it’s all for people to win ribbons. And add Arabians to the Morgans and Saddlebreds. It made me sick when the rules changed to allow for that crap in a breed that was supposed to be “natural”.
[QUOTE=Tiffani B;8792732]
And the trailing chains are kicking chains used by EVERY breed. They are not unique to high stepping breeds and do absolutely nothing in terms of changing a horse’s way of going. So don’t even bring those into the discussion. That’s just ignorant and trying to make something you don’t understand into something evil because it’s fun to do so.[/QUOTE]
I know this is a topic that gets people upset and sometimes defensive. That’s understandable. The quoted part of your comment is unfair and the namecalling and tone is undeserved.
I own a highstepping breed, though I no longer show saddleseat. I actually showed rated quite successfully with a saddleseat Morgan for many years, without using chains, and not back in the dark ages. I don’t believe that they’re necessary for training, and I have seen chains used on horses with rubs and irritation. My experience may not be your experience, and that’s fine. I appreciate hearing another perspective. It’d be nice if you’d extend a little courtesy, however, in the discussion.
I used kicking chains as an example because I felt that there probably was some connection with how they worked and how chains work, based on the training chains that I have seen in practice. Obviously they’re not used for changing gait or in training. It seemed to me that the mechanics are somewhat similar with action chains around horses’ legs, based on what I have seen in practice. If that’s not your experience, great.
::Edited:: I can tell I’m also getting defensive and a little butthurt, and that’s not good. Not deleting because that is cowardly. What is really important, though, is the well-being of the horses.
[QUOTE=mylittlemorgan;8792972]
I know this is a topic that gets people upset and sometimes defensive. That’s understandable. The quoted part of your comment is unfair and the namecalling and tone is undeserved.
I own a highstepping breed, though I no longer show saddleseat. I actually showed rated quite successfully with a saddleseat Morgan for many years, without using chains, and not back in the dark ages. I don’t believe that they’re necessary for training, and I have seen chains used on horses with rubs and irritation. My experience may not be your experience, and that’s fine. I appreciate hearing another perspective. It’d be nice if you’d extend a little courtesy, however, in the discussion.
I used kicking chains as an example because I felt that there probably was some connection with how they worked and how chains work, based on the training chains that I have seen in practice. Obviously they’re not used for changing gait or in training. It seemed to me that the mechanics are somewhat similar with action chains around horses’ legs, based on what I have seen in practice. If that’s not your experience, great.
::Edited:: I can tell I’m also getting defensive and a little butthurt, and that’s not good. Not deleting because that is cowardly. What is really important, though, is the well-being of the horses.[/QUOTE]
There is no connection between kicking or pawing chains and action chains, so bringing them into the discussion just distracts from the real issues. That said, you probably encounter them a lot more in saddle seat barns because the horses aren’t usually turned out. That’s a whole nother conversation. My trimmed horse is turned out 12+ hours a day. He has a short foot, very small pad, but wears bands because being turned out means he loses his shoes frequently. If I could use bands in the winter when he just has plates on I would because my farrier is tired of coming out to tack shoes back on lol.
I apologize if my tone was offensive. Decades of dealing with closed minded people have made me a bit jaded.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;8791634]
You, know, folks it really doesn’t matter what some interest group says about a statute. What matters is what the statute says and then what the enforcement agency for that statute does.
The statute makes a clear distinction between the therapeutic pad and other pads. Therapeutic pads are OK. Are pads used by, say, ASBs “therapeutic?” Not being familiar with the mechanics of pad use in trotting horses I’m not sure if they would fall under the statute or not. It’s a fair question, however.
In the TWH show world they were NOT therapeutic even under the most liberal definition possible.
How about chains. The purpose of the chain is to change the horse’s way of going. How does it do that? In the lateral horse it does it by irritating the foot and encouraging a “flinch” to get more front end action. Does it work that way for trotter? Frankly, I don’t know as I’ve never worked with a trotter and chains. If it does then it’s arguably under the strictures of the HPA. That’s arguably bad for the trainers who use and the owners to pay for the use of chains; it’s arguably a Good Thing for the horse who’s feet aren’t getting banged with chain every step.
No soring technique or device is a “training device.” A “training device” is something that is used to get a response and then not used unless and until necessary to either re-establish the response or get a new response. The crop, spur, and bit all fall into this class. The “action device,” whether it technically “sores” the horse or not, is an “anti-training device.” The horse does well and the device continues to activate; the horse does poorly and the device continues to activate. As long as the horse moves the device activates. It’s a “dumb”* device. And even worse, take the device off and the result fades quickly. It trained nothing. It just caused gratuitous pain to gain a cosmetic result. Personally, I consider that outrageous. YMMV.
It’s long past time for this action.
G.
*“Dumb” meaning without brain, judgment, or discretion. It just does what it does until the horse stops moving.[/QUOTE]
In my opinion many Saddlebreds are wearing pads that are not for therapeutic use. I know somebody is going to get after me for it, but, that is my opinion.
[QUOTE=Tiffani B;8792996]
There is no connection between kicking or pawing chains and action chains, so bringing them into the discussion just distracts from the real issues. That said, you probably encounter them a lot more in saddle seat barns because the horses aren’t usually turned out. That’s a whole nother conversation. My trimmed horse is turned out 12+ hours a day. He has a short foot, very small pad, but wears bands because being turned out means he loses his shoes frequently. If I could use bands in the winter when he just has plates on I would because my farrier is tired of coming out to tack shoes back on lol.
I apologize if my tone was offensive. Decades of dealing with closed minded people have made me a bit jaded.[/QUOTE]
We Saddlebred people should probably just lose the big shoes, chains, turn our horses out and we would have happier horses, happier people etc. The breed is a great breed chains or no chains so why do we torture ourselves with all this?
[QUOTE=Ladylexie;8793170]
In my opinion many Saddlebreds are wearing pads that are not for therapeutic use. I know somebody is going to get after me for it, but, that is my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Your opinion is correct. Not that many saddlebreds need pads to be sound. A few need them from crappy farrier jobs (overrun heels and toes way too long), but overall ASB’s are fairly sound even in old age. Many trainers pull shoes for the winter and turn out barefoot or with a keg from Nov- beginning of Feb.
I don’t show anymore in rated shows, so no skin in the game, but if the ASB/Hackney people wanted to be proactive to outsiders, they would pass limits on weight and length of foot without being told too, and fix the tail issue.
[QUOTE=Ladylexie;8793176]
We Saddlebred people should probably just lose the big shoes, chains, turn our horses out and we would have happier horses, happier people etc. The breed is a great breed chains or no chains so why do we torture ourselves with all this?[/QUOTE]
Agree and that’s what I’ve done. My horses are happier and move better, less joint issues and I spend less money on hay and shavings lol. But I still show and am very competitive. It can be done.
[QUOTE=Tiffani B;8792732]
Chains work on the horse’s natural instinct to “step out” of whatever is caught around its ankle. The action of stepping higher provides a greater range of motion workout for the horse, thus benefiting the horse’s joints and muscles. A non sored horse will get used to the sensation after a few minutes and stop trying to shake the chain off of their ankle. This is why you’ll only see Saddlebreds warm up in chains. After 5 minutes or so, they come off because they stop working. A sore horse will never get used to the chain on their ankle and will constantly try to step out of it. This is why they show in them - the sensation is constant when coupled with the soring agents.
Can chains be used in such a manner as to cause a non sored horse pain? Certainly. So can spurs and bits. But a responsible trainer will only use them for the purpose I stated above - to give the horse a greater workout - and not to hurt them. Every single Saddlebred trainer I’ve ever worked with will STOP using chains or cuffs on the horse if there is even the slightest rub mark - nevermind an actual open sore. Honestly I’ve never EVER seen chains cause sores. Ever. They just don’t. The sores you see on those walking horses are from the chemicals - not the chains.
I have an IR camera. I have worked my horse in chains and taken heat images up to 4 hours post workout. I have worked that same horse in just bell boots and taken the same images. There is no more heat caused by a light pair of chains, properly used, than a pair of flopping bell boots. In fact, the heat is in a much larger area from the bell boots and it lasts slightly longer, so my instinct is to think that bell boots are probably more irritating. And my horse gets hair rubs from any pair of bell boots he’s ever worn, but never from chains.
It’s very easy to assume chains are evil. Because, chains. Not butterfly wings. Not cotton balls. Chains. But really, folks, it’s the same argument when you’re talking to a person who believes all bits are evil because horses shouldn’t have metal in their mouth with a person pulling on it. You know very well that properly used bits don’t cause pain, you use bits all the time, and you would IMMEDIATELY recognize and alleviate any discomfort the horse would have from wearing a bit. Saddlebred trainers are the same. They know how to use chains correctly, they know they don’t hurt the horse because they know the signs of pain, and they never WANT to hurt the horse because that defeats the purpose of what wins in the show ring.
And the trailing chains are kicking chains used by EVERY breed. They are not unique to high stepping breeds and do absolutely nothing in terms of changing a horse’s way of going. So don’t even bring those into the discussion. That’s just ignorant and trying to make something you don’t understand into something evil because it’s fun to do so.[/QUOTE]
There are a bunch of “moving parts” in this explanation and I’m not sure all of them fit together. But it’s late and that will be a task for tomorrow.
G.
Thank you for the extra information, and the apology. It is easy to understand why your experience would make you feel the way you do. I appreciate you giving me another perspective.
Turnout is definitely a whole other conversation. 
Our horses certainly thrive on, and need, their turnout time. Now if they would just stop using some of that time to rub their itchies on the fence, that would be great!
The info about bands is really helpful - I didn’t know they were used in that way and had never seen a horse with bands that did not also have a hugely stacked shoe/pads. My husband and I were actually talking about bands this evening trying to figure out how they could be used in a constructive way, since we’ve both heard people talk about using them without stacks, and now I can give him this example.
Most of the time, bands are put on a Saddlebred is when they have a tendency to forge. They aren’t used to carry the weight of the shoe - they are used to help keep the shoe on in case of an overreach. It’s such a mistaken assumption that they wear bands simply because the shoes are too heavy to stay on without them. That’s not the case at all. The shoes stay on just fine if the horse has a good foot. Now, a horse with a thin wall or shelly feet might have more of a problem keeping shoes on - but they’d have problems with normal shoes, too. So the bands do help in that situation.
The bands are VERY loose when the horse is not working. As in, they move freely and you can get the tip of your finger under them. When the horse works, they are tightened up to about the same tightness you’d put splint boots on. Just enough to provide tension, but not so much as to be annoying to the horse.
If you look at how most Saddle Seat horses are shod, the shoes extend an inch, inch and a half past the heel. On a normally shod horse, the shoe ends at the heel or very slightly past it. So because our shoes are so much longer, they’re easier for the horse to grab. I keep mine with a shorter heel extension, but it’s still enough for him to grab it when he’s outside cavorting around. When he’s working, he never forges so he wouldn’t need them if he wasn’t turned out. But since I believe strongly in turnout, he gets bands. My hunter, on the other hand, has no pads and forges when working if he goes too long before a reset (for him that’s only four weeks, yikes), so we turn the ends of his shoes up so he has nothing to grab onto. If I could find a way to put bands on him I would, but we aren’t allowed to show with bands or pads in the hunter division, so I find other ways. He’s missing a shoe right now, in fact. Le sigh…
So if a protective boot such as a bell boot causes a rub, and also seems to elicit high stepping flexion for a short time…
And a light chain not protective but that elicits high stepping flexion without causing a rub…
Boot is judged good, while chain is judged bad: even though one caused discomfort while the other did not. Solely because the INTENTION of the ‘thing on the leg’ was different. Protect vs. exercise.
I do wonder how jumper pinch boots would be judged.
On another tack: why not simply state hoof plus pad plus shoe must not exceed XX inches for horses or XX inches for ponies over - or XX inches for ponies under - This is easy for even idiots to enforce and outgate the offenders; no need for pain testing, heat testing, etc.
You know, there is no way the ‘unique’ dressage shoes worn by some top competitors would ever pass the HPA test
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UDtWdK_kpK8/Tp3Za2wNTlI/AAAAAAAAD9Y/us6iNiI1QW8/s1600/FUego+left+front+erin+ryder+x510+lr.png
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y0opUl05sNg/T0A12CvDjAI/AAAAAAAAENo/M_0hcn84prQ/s1600/1+Ernest+Woodward+full+rolling+Wm+x500px.jpeg
http://www.farriery.eu/2007/005-12-a.jpg
http://www.dressage-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Aachen-CDIO-GPS-Herzrufs-Erbe-right-hind-_T5U1669-web.jpg
I am against any use of pain to increase or change motion, especially where the horse cannot find a response that avoids pain.
I mean using cavaletti or ground poles, for instance, where a horse that knocks its’ leg learns to lift higher and time the stride better so as to avoid the discomfort is not abusive within reason; while pain inducing chemicals and stacks that realign bony columns in the leg or limit weight bearing to enhance movement are abusive.
I don’t understand why enforcement continues to be so ineffective. You would think that trainer suspensions could be enforced and other commercial sanctions and fines would have effect.
I agree that the ‘tails and feet’ are negatives that deflect many horse enthusiasts in the direction of other disciplines and by association, other breeds.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8794848]
So if a protective boot such as a bell boot causes a rub, and also seems to elicit high stepping flexion for a short time…
And a light chain not protective but that elicits high stepping flexion without causing a rub…
Boot is judged good, while chain is judged bad: even though one caused discomfort while the other did not. Solely because the INTENTION of the ‘thing on the leg’ was different. Protect vs. exercise.
I do wonder how jumper pinch boots would be judged.
On another tack: why not simply state hoof plus pad plus shoe must not exceed XX inches for horses or XX inches for ponies over - or XX inches for ponies under - This is easy for even idiots to enforce and outgate the offenders; no need for pain testing, heat testing, etc.
You know, there is no way the ‘unique’ dressage shoes worn by some top competitors would ever pass the HPA test
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UDtWdK_kpK8/Tp3Za2wNTlI/AAAAAAAAD9Y/us6iNiI1QW8/s1600/FUego+left+front+erin+ryder+x510+lr.png
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y0opUl05sNg/T0A12CvDjAI/AAAAAAAAENo/M_0hcn84prQ/s1600/1+Ernest+Woodward+full+rolling+Wm+x500px.jpeg
http://www.farriery.eu/2007/005-12-a.jpg
http://www.dressage-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Aachen-CDIO-GPS-Herzrufs-Erbe-right-hind-_T5U1669-web.jpg
I am against any use of pain to increase or change motion, especially where the horse cannot find a response that avoids pain.
I mean using cavaletti or ground poles, for instance, where a horse that knocks its’ leg learns to lift higher and time the stride better so as to avoid the discomfort is not abusive within reason; while pain inducing chemicals and stacks that realign bony columns in the leg or limit weight bearing to enhance movement are abusive.
I don’t understand why enforcement continues to be so ineffective. You would think that trainer suspensions could be enforced and other commercial sanctions and fines would have effect.
I agree that the ‘tails and feet’ are negatives that deflect many horse enthusiasts in the direction of other disciplines and by association, other breeds.[/QUOTE]
Good points and I agree completely.
Isn’t one of the types of soring hiding things under the pads? How do chains or rattles contribute to soring? If they aren’t coated with caustic chemicals, that is.
Some of those dressage shoes are disgusting. It would be very easy to hide things under the pads, and some look like weights. Jumper riders umpers have hidden things under their jumping boots or used weighted ones. The jumping Doda boots are abusive, but only to young horses–per the FEI, and I can’t quite understand why. If they are abusive to the young, they are also abusive to the older.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8794985]
Isn’t one of the types of soring hiding things under the pads? How do chains or rattles contribute to soring? If they aren’t coated with caustic chemicals, that is.
Some of those dressage shoes are disgusting. It would be very easy to hide things under the pads, and some look like weights. Jumper riders umpers have hidden things under their jumping boots or used weighted ones. The jumping Doda boots are abusive, but only to young horses–per the FEI, and I can’t quite understand why. If they are abusive to the young, they are also abusive to the older.[/QUOTE]
IR cameras can detect things under the pads now.
Read my earlier post re: how sorers use chains in a way they are not intended for.
Ya know, the law is on the books and has been for some time now. Writing it to be more specific isn’t seeing the forest due to the trees in the way: who is going to pay for it to be enforced, and how? As hideous as soring is, there ARE greater abuses of animals happening. Here we have one Department of Agriculture inspector for a 15 county radius. We can’t even get the necessary disease control and animal abuse/neglect situations addressed properly and in a timely manner. Who’s going to pay the people to sit at horse shows every weekend to make sure these laws are enforced?? And who’s going to oversee this group??
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