Use of whip/voice during dressage test?

[Watermark_Farm]

I was a test runner at a major CDS/USDF dressage show this past weekend and have a question about whip use in tests. I watched many rides from 2nd level to PSG, and was surprised to see some riders really use the whip during their test. Is that allowed, and if so is there a penalty? It was not a subtle tap behind the leg, it was an all-out “smack smack smack,” very obvious to both judge and spectator, more what you would see schooling. Is this kind of whip use allowed? And if so, what are the guidelines for whip use during a test? Are there penalties?

And what about use of the voice? I also heard a few riders kiss and cluck to their horses. Is there a penalty for this?

I’m a former eventer who’s now doing dressage shows, so I’m still getting used to even carrying a whip in tests! Thanks in advance for educating me.

[Trixie_s_mom]

kissing and clucking, if heard will result in a penalty. regarding whip use, I think that is the judge’s decision as to regard it as a submission/discipline issue and score accordingly.

[Pony_Fixer]

Voice, not allowed (if the judge hears it ;))

Whip is allowed to be used. Only once have I really USED it (other than a tickle) with a smack smack. Rest of my test improved dramatically! And I was not penalized to my knowledge (ie, specific comment).

I think a judge would rather see you use the whip smartly (judiciously) than watch you have a horse behind your leg for 6 minutes…

[Eventer13]

@Pony Fixer;3279511

Voice, not allowed (if the judge hears it ;))

That’s why I love when judges sit in a car with the windows up

[Janet]

GR 839 Cruelty to and Abuse of a Horse applies to all disciplines.
In particular, it says

4. The following acts are included under the words Cruelty and Abuse but are not limited
   thereto:
   a. Excessive use of a whip on any horse in a stall, runway, schooling area, competition
   ring or elsewhere on the competition grounds, before or during a competition, by any
   person. Except in emergency situations, any striking of the horse’s head (on the poll
   and forward of the poll) with the whip shall be deemed excessive
   In cases of abuse

The Show Committee must bar violators from further participation for the remainder
of the competition.

But there is no penalty for non-abusive use of the whip. The “apprpriateness” might factor into the “rider” score.

Use of the voice is penalized each time the judge hears it.

The use of the voice in any way whatsoever or clicking the tongue once or repeatedly is
a serious fault involving the deduction of at least 2 marks from those that would otherwise have
been awarded for the movement where this occurred.

[Hilary]

Yes, the whip is allowed, and the judge would rather see you trying to DO something, than muddle along not trying to fix a forwardness problem.

You have been able to carry a whip in eventing dressage for several years now.

No use of voice, although I’ve softly said something soothing like “easy” when my horse was young and tended to get super tense. I would rather lose two points than get bucked off!

[Halfpassfarm]

If you need to talk, do it when aimed/heading away from the judge. They can’t hear you if you talk quietly and that way they can not see your lips move.

I’ve had some major spooks/jumps forward that caught me by surprise to where I yelled ‘whoa’ (like on a roller coaster, not to try and halt my horse) and actually had the judge write a complimentary comment on riding through the problem. Most judges are reasonable and like the posted above said would rather have a problem taken care of versus watching it reoccur all the way through a test.

[ltw]

“Yes, the whip is allowed, and the judge would rather see you trying to DO something, than muddle along not trying to fix a forwardness problem.”

Exactly, I agree with Hilary 100%. That is just good, correct training. Fix the problem and move on. Too bad, that not all judges see it that way. I recently had an interesting experience. I halted at X, saluted and asked my horse to move off at trot by squeezing my calves against his sides. He did not react, so I removed both legs and gave him a quick little boot in his sides, he moved forward and was responsive after that. He would prefer to be behind the leg. When I started my right half pass, I gave him a light tap with the whip as he became a bit luggy and did not respond to my halfhalt or leg.

At the end of the test, the judge came out of the box and said to me. “I was so upset by the fact that you kicked your horse I could not judge your next 5 movements, I was too busy looking to see what what was wrong. I would rather you take a 5 or 6 on your movements than kick your horse”. I think my jaw dropped to my knees. I really could not believe she said this.

This judges comments IMHO were wrong. I have been taught for the last 25-30 years that you correct a problem at that moment and do not let the problem carry over to the whole test. If you have to take a lower score for that movement, OH WELL, better to take one low score than let the horse stay behind the leg for the whole test and ruin your scores for all the movements. This particular judge did not seem to have that particular background or training. This really surprised me.

Regardless, I would not change what I did. It is very important that your horse respect you in and out of the dressage ring. If a horse learns that they can get away with this behaviour during a dressage test and you do not correct it you are setting yourself up for future problems in the show ring. It is amazing how smart some horses are that they know the difference between showing and training and learn that their riders will not make the big corrections during a test. The next thing you know you have a smarty pants bratty horse on your hands that takes advantage when you are in front of the judge. Make the big correction and move on. That is my philosophy. If the judge cannot see, understand what is going on than the judge is not a real trainer. the judge should penalize that one movement and than judge each following movement on its own merit.

[molliwog]

I have to agree that the judges would rather see someone use a whip correclty, than carry it along as a prop~I scribe frequently, and have heard more than one judge make a comment to this effect. I can think of two different examples~

One was a third level horse where the rider had turned to do her medium across the diagonal. The horse was marvelously athletic, but the rider must have felt him lacking in engagement just a bit- she rider gave the horse two tactful light taps behind her leg in the trot rhythm. The horse immediately engaged his hind leg and the medium scored a 9- the horse had a whole 'nother gear that a less skilled rider would never have accessed, and it was just amazing.

The other was several years ago when I was scribing for Edgar Hotz. A rider started across the diagonal to do a series of changes in her 4th level test, and her big, old style horse had gotten behind her leg. She asked for the first change and got…nothing. She gave old Dobbin a single solid whack, and got the count on the changes, although they weren’t centered over X- and the horse finished the test ahead of her leg. The final score was in the mid 60’s. She scored a 5 on the changes, but Dr. Hotz commented to me after the test that he would rather see a rider be effective in a single moment in that way to address an issue, than nag at the horse throughout the test and never solve the problem. I think he gave her a 7 on her riding.

[slc2]

The idea that a judge doesn’t want to see a rider use a whip when the horse needs it is - incorrect. In classes where the whip is allowed it is expected that one is going to use it - appropriately. I once had a judge tell me after a ride on a very naughty pony, ‘What do you think that whip is for - DECORATION?’

That means not EXCESSIVE whipping, for example, going on and on beating the snot out of the horse, and I’ve seen when people got penalized for that and there’s a LOT of ground between that and ‘using’ a whip appropriately.

actually I think that if the horse is doing something bad, the judge would MUCH RATHER See an appropriate correction than a wimpy one, and would far prefer to see the rider DO SOMETHING rathr than nothing or something ineffective. The scoring is geared that way as well.

I once watched a judge grin ear to ear when a friend gave her horse the aid to start his leg yield and the horse put his ears back and kicked out at the leg and stood stock still, one good smack with the whip, and he trotted off and did his leg yield. She got a comment, ‘disobedient’, had the movement marked down by 1 point, and below, ‘good riding!’ If she had not done that, she would have scored a zero for the leg yield.

At the same time, i’ve seen a clinician who was also a judge, teaching clinic participants about how the judge sees these things, stand up and yell at a rider that used the whip vindictively (the horse hadn’t done anything wrong yet, this was a ‘warning shot’ and it was indeed a real nasty move), ‘THAT IS SO UNFAIR!’ And I think that if a judge saw a rider use the whip THAT way, he would be eliminating or heavily penalizing the rider.

But let’s say the horse is totally unresponsive to the leg during the entire test, and the rider is constantly smacking the horse because his leg aids are ineffective. That is going to figure into the score, most likely more the general impressions scores, but it could effect many movements (‘no canter transition’, ‘transition late’, ‘no difference shown in lengthened trot’ etc).

I think the dressage judges want us to ride in a practical, sensible way. I feel they don’t want us to ‘carry the whip for decoration’, and I don’t feel that means all one can ever do is give the horse a tiny little tap with the whip, but I also feel they draw the line at excessive or punitively unfair use of a whip.

The voice is very different - no use of the voice is allowed.

[Skeezix]

Timely thread.

On Sunday my daughter was riding a young green horse for the owner. The mare has been known to get cranky and throw a pretty sizeable buck (owner has come off twice). My daughter has found that she responds best to a good growl, and sure enough when the mare started to launch she growled loudly enough that the judge couldn’t have missed it, but the mare immediately came back to her and continued on without another fuss. She came out of the ring and apologized to the owner, figuring she would have an error, but the owner laughed and was appreciative of the quick correction. The judge only wrote “naughty horse” on the test and reflected in the score, but gave no error.

[Watermark_Farm]

THANK YOU!

[QUOTE=Pony Fixer;3279511]

I think a judge would rather see you use the whip smartly (judiciously) than watch you have a horse behind your leg for 6 minutes…[/QUOTE]

Thank you for answering my question! I enjoyed reading your responses — it all makes more sense to me now.

[Painted_Up]

my boy was in slow-mo one day at a show (he’s never super forward) and i unknowingly clucked to him and it was noted on my card. not sure if i lost points, but the judge did feel it neccessary to note it. but we also got a note of, nearly walked @ C!! so whats worse???

[yellowbritches]

At the end of the test, the judge came out of the box and said to me. “I was so upset by the fact that you kicked your horse I could not judge your next 5 movements, I was too busy looking to see what what was wrong. I would rather you take a 5 or 6 on your movements than kick your horse”. I think my jaw dropped to my knees. I really could not believe she said this.

My goodness, this is nearly as good as the judge who recently told me the issues I had with a certain horse was due to her bit! The mare was soft and relaxed most of the test, but spooked and spun at one point, and was a bit of a wreck for the next couple of movements. I was a little shocked that a judge would tell me my bit was wrong…on a horse she didn’t know and had never seen go! Considering we’re in the same general area and the judge I’m thinking of is notorious for making off the wall comments, I’m wondering if it IS the same judge!

I have always been told that is better to properly use a whip then just let things happen. Same goes for schooling a bit if stuff is going wrong. Judges supposedly prefer to see a rider try and FIX a problem then just let things get out of hand. Sometimes you get a judge who actually appreciates it, sometimes you don’t.

As for the voice, if you can do it very softly and (as I’ve found out) without too much lip moving, it’ll usually slide by the judge.