USEA membership - Ammy or Pro?

[Pansonfyre]

Can experienced COTHers settle a debate we’re having at our barn over 2 rider scenarios? Both started eventing and want to join USEA to do rated events.

Person #1. Long time show jumper (rides & shows locally). She gives lower level kids’ jumping lessons at our farm on weekends. Long time boarder, so gets discounted board based on the number of lessons she does. She registered as an amateur for 2017 season.

Person #2. Long time dressage rider - does not show. She gives lower level dressage lessons at our farm weekdays for $$. She registered as a Non-Amateur for the 2017 season.

There are 2 other fulltime trainers at the farm who take students to shows, train and ride client horses, find sale horses…

If I understand the rules correctly, the first 2 people are pros too. Though neither teaches full-time or does the things the full-timers do, don’t they both have to reg. as non-amateurs?

[tbchick84]

My understanding is, if you take $$, you’re a pro, so #2 for sure. #1, not sure how that works with barter.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Both are pros under USEF rules. Any compensation…so reduced board is the same as getting cash.
\

BUT…the pro/ammy distinction really doesn’t affect eventing OTHER than year end awards and the AEC divisions.

There can be an “ammy” division at HTs but more often it is just open or rider or horse divisions. A pro CAN ride in a “Rider” division. The “Rider” divisions are just based on experience level…not the Ammy/Pro distinction.

[pologirl27]

They are pros. They should just be honest and ride as pros, it won’t have much impact on the divisions they show in, just year end stuff as BFNE mentions.

[msghook]

They are both professionals. Because USEA has an endorsement agreement with USEF to enforce ALL the rules at ALL levels, they can be charged and fined for violating the amateur rule.
Malcolm

[Jersey_Fresh]

Both are pros.

I find the whole thing really, really frustrating. I don’t understand how people either don’t get it or don’t care about ammie rules. They are spelled out pretty clear in the USEF handbook and you can always call them and explain the situation and they will tell you what you are. But people don’t seem to do that and because of the cost to file a protest and report them, those shamatuers get away with it and compete against the rest of us desk jockeys that are true amateurs.

There was even an article in COTH in their “Amateurs Like Us” section about a working student who in her article comments that SHE RIDES MULTIPLE HORSES FOR HER TRAINER DAILY but shows as an amateur. But no one seemed to notice…

[NMK]

Both are pros. If they sign up to be a pro for eventing they will be considered a pro for every USEF discipline. Even reining. So while it doesn’t count for much with eventing, other than amateur rankings, it surely will influence the entries if they enter a show in any other USEF discipline.

[amb]

@Pansonfyre

Can experienced COTHers settle a debate we’re having at our barn over 2 rider scenarios? Both started eventing and want to join USEA to do rated events.

Get them to read GR1306 and it should be a really short debate, unless person #1 is of the “I’m a special snowflake and I’m not really who the rules apply to” school of thinking, in which case I have lots of stronger and ruder words for them.

This is only a part of GR1306; earlier in the rule it’s made very clear that “renumeration” includes “cash, goods, sponsorships, discounts or services; reimbursement of any expenses; trade or in-kind exchange of goods or services such as board or training”:

@USEF GR 2017 version

4. Professional based on one’s own activities. Unless expressly permitted above, a person is a professional if after his

18th birthday he does any of the following:

a. Accepts remuneration AND rides, exercises, drives, shows, trains, assists in training, schools or conducts clinics or seminars.

b. Accepts remuneration AND gives riding or driving lessons, showmanship lessons, equitation lessons, trains horses, or provides consultation services in riding, driving, showmanship, equitation, or training of horses.

[Lusoluv]

Yes, both Person 1 & 2 are pros. I think riders who are asked to teach up n’ down lessons or exercise another boarder’s horse, or whatever, don’t think of themselves as “pros”. When they hear “pro” they think Dutton, Kieffer, O’Donaghue. Even if they do read the rule book, they don’t believe they’re in that club. And I kinda agree. But I sure don’t know how to make pro or ammy distinctions more fair.

If a grad student is teaching 8 yr olds posting trot at a 20 stall barn to pay board gets grouped with Jimmie Schramm in an Open Prelim division - that’s the way it goes.

[goodmorning]

I wonder if many eventers are familiar with the scope of the ammy rule? Working students are not Ammys, yet I see them in year end results & boasting about their awards on social media. Some seem like obvious errors/maybe people just not updating their ammy card…

[Jersey_Fresh]

@goodmorning

I wonder if many eventers are familiar with the scope of the ammy rule? Working students are not Ammys, yet I see them in year end results & boasting about their awards on social media. Some seem like obvious errors/maybe people just not updating their ammy card…

I think this may be it and for others, ignorance is bliss. Many of my friends don’t understand that ZERO money can change hands and you can still be breaking the ammy rules. I mean look at the COTH Ammies like us article. I just shook my head at that…

[Janet]

There is a BIG difference between

-“Amateur by the Rules” (which are aimed at closing loopholes that have been abused, but paint with a very broad brush)
and

• “Amateur in Spirit” (“Horses are how I SPEND money, not how I MAKE money” )

For competition, only “Amateur by the Rules” counts

[Divine_Comedy]

I don’t know if people just don’t pay attention when filling out their USEF membership or what. I wish the USEA would keep an eye on the Amateur leaderboards at least for each level…for instance, the Advanced leaderboards list Robyn Fisher and Rachel McDonough as Adult Amateurs and Colleen Rutledge as a Master Adult Amateur. All three of those people have websites or Facebook pages promoting their eventing sales or training businesses.

[Divine_Comedy]

Although looking at it some more, I wonder if the USEA leaderboard categories are just being buggy, Kim Severson and Buck both get listed at Master Riders and Master Amatuers (Kim only) in various places.

[Ready_To_Riot]

Working students CAN be ammys. If you are only riding and training your horse and working off board and lessons by doing barn chores and grooming etc, you’re an ammy. It’s when you start riding and training others horses that the lines become blurred.

[Lusoluv]

Sorry Ready To Riot, you are incorrect. As other posters have already stated, ANY compensation is compensation. So reduced board, free or discounted lessons which is given in exchange for working with horses is SAME AS CASH.

[Lusoluv]

Then the 2 people in the OPs query would both be amateurs, based on Ready to Riot’s rationale. If they only teach people and don’t ride/train horses, then they both can register as amateurs.

[Highflyer]

Teaching people OR riding/ training horses in exchange for payment, either in cash or in goods or services, makes you a professional. Doing barn work doesn’t.

[Divine_Comedy]

@Ready To Riot

Working students CAN be ammys. If you are only riding and training your horse and working off board and lessons by doing barn chores and grooming etc, you’re an ammy. It’s when you start riding and training others horses that the lines become blurred.

This is true…but I don’t know many barns where the WS aren’t involved with any kind of training. The rule isn’t just written about riding; if that WS even lunges or does groundwork with a horse not their own, that constitutes training. Even the word ‘handling’ is in the definition, so unless you never touch a horse in training other than your own, I’m not sure it’s truly possibly to be a WS without running into this definition. And if the WS so much as gets on a horse not their own, forget about it.

I don’t know many WS positions structured this way, but I suppose it’s possible.

“j. Accepts remuneration AND acts as an intern, apprentice, or working student whose responsibilities include, but are not limited to, riding, driving, showmanship, handling, showing, training or assisting in training, giving lessons/coaching and/or schooling horses other than horses actually owned by him.”

Lusoluv, teaching people is also an activity that quickly violates your ammy status, it doesn’t have to be about training horses only. Pretty much anyone who gives lessons and accepts any type of renumeration whatsoever (either money or board or training in kind) is a pro. So both of the examples from the OP are pros.

Doing barn work does not make you a pro. But if you start engaging in groundwork or lunging as part of your barn work, you might be running into the pro territory.

[Ready_To_Riot]

Interesting that “handling” is in that rule. I’m willing to bet when questioned, the USEF would permit leading a horse around/holding a horse and it not make you a pro. Who really knows though. But yes, OP, all the people you mentioned are easily classified as pros without question.