USEF Equitation and H/J Judging

[emeraldcity]

Some interesting points here, but I guess I just wonder- why isn’t it ok to just be the best on that day? That’s what happens in dressage. You can certainly have a better horse who has some costly errors, and a “less nice” horse might win out that day- why shouldn’t that be rewarded?

As to your last point, it certainly turns me off to the hunters. I often ride at small local dressage shows, so placings don’t mean much, and I honestly would be unlikely to place well at a bigger show on my tense TB, so I am very much only interested in the feedback, not the placings. There’s always something you can get out of it. Not so much in the hunters.

@Madison

you are paying for one person’s opinion of that round on a given day, relative to the others in the class

I guess my problem with this is that still doesn’t provide any actionable feedback. Maybe if the judge at least had to write some comments akin to the dressage collectives at the end of each round, that might help?

[Rubyroo]

@emeraldcity

I guess my problem with this is that still doesn’t provide any actionable feedback. Maybe if the judge at least had to write some comments akin to the dressage collectives at the end of each round, that might help?

I guess I don’t understand why people expect detailed feedback from judges on show day - it’s a horse show, not a lesson. Judges are not getting paid for that level of individual feedback and there just isn’t time in a day for them to give a lesson to every rider at a hunter show. If you don’t trust your trainer to be able to give you constructive feedback after your rounds, get another trainer. Most judges give lessons and clinics outside of their judging duties; anyone is welcome to take advantage of those situations any time they are available.

[findeight]

Detailed feedback on a Hunter round should come from a Trainer or Clinician specifically hired to provide detailed feedback and suggestions for improvement to each individual.

As opposed to a judge trying to place 70 trips on 3 open cards based on that trip, that day against that group of horses. Open Hunters are “graded” on a curve, not against a standard. Thats not just Hunters, you don’t get detailed, individual feedback from a judge even if you get a numerical score in many disciplines and breed shows. Even with a standard, you still are placed based on that class that day in that judges opinion.

Theres nothing to be gained by a truthful judge saying you made more mistakes and/ or your horse was just not as good as those who scored higher. Thats your honest answer and one that must be accepted if you want to compete in subjectively judged disciplines.

[dags]

I think there’s an attractive “value added” proposition to numerical scoring for those getting creamed by the competition on the regular but still trying to enjoy the “sport” without a six-figure budget. It’s certainly one way to open up the definition of what “success” in this sport is — and with that comes greater accessibility & participation.

But I’ve been advocating that we at least consider some type of numerical system for more than a decade and the industry as a whole is adamantly opposed. So I’ve stopped wasting my breath and just watch as magazines roll out the same articles about politics/confused parents/doped hunters/perched pilots year after year.

[Mander]

@Rubyroo

I guess I don’t understand why people expect detailed feedback from judges on show day - it’s a horse show, not a lesson.

I’d hardly equate a sentence of feedback (if that!) to a lesson… “Needs more pace”, “maintain better rhythm”, “horse hangs knees” isn’t exactly asking the moon from the judge, especially since they’re already marking each fence. If they’re worried about time, they could have a scribe write down their final comments as the next horse enters the ring to keep things moving.

@Rubyroo

If you don’t trust your trainer to be able to give you constructive feedback after your rounds, get another trainer. Most judges give lessons and clinics outside of their judging duties; anyone is welcome to take advantage of those situations any time they are available.

And of course, the issue with this is accessibility. One of the biggest complaints about hunters is that if you don’t have a million dollar budget, you can’t be competitive. Not everyone has access to other trainers (let alone better ones!) and in addition to the expense, clinics usually require access to a truck/trailer and, if they’re not nearby, they also incur the added expenses of hotels, stabling, food, etc. If a goal of the sport is to make it more accessible, then telling people to “just throw more money at it” isn’t a solution.

[Rel6]

This is a great point. When I come out of the hunter or jumper ring, my trainer and I go over each jump and what worked and what I need to improve on.

I started riding with an eventing trainer this summer I really like, and she told me she had to leave when I went into my dressage test to get another horse ready. I was a little taken aback coming from a h/j background, but realized the big difference is I came away from that dressage test with comments on every movement from the judge on what I need to improve on.

I personally feel like I pay my h/j trainer to teach me at home and in the show ring, help me improve in both arenas, and the judge is a neutral figure (neutral in that they don’t know me or my horse or the progress we’ve made) who evaluates that training in comparison to whatever horses we are competing against. I have never thought of the judge’s role as being one to provide feedback.

[Rel6]

See I had the opposite frustration with dressage scoring. Our first event of the summer, we had a truly lovely test. I was so happy and excited and then confused when our score didn’t reflect that. We were in 8/14 after dressage.

Our next event, same judge, our test was objectively worse: fumbled a w/t transition, blew a lead, and overall just less focused and harmonious. Scored higher. We were in 5/13 after dressage.

I didn’t think the numerical scores reflected the tests we put in - I thought the first was harsh, and the second generous. But take out the scores, and I would have though oh totally makes sense 7 people had nicer tests, or 8 people had worse tests. So absolutely the company could have affected the scores, but having numbers to correspond to that actually made it a bit less understandable to the test I rode.

My hunter background is clearly ingrained strong…

[MHM]

@Rel6

I have never thought of the judge’s role as being one to provide feedback.

No, because it is not in the judge’s job description at a show for hunters or jumpers.

The judge’s job description is to pin the class in the right order. That’s it.

[Rubyroo]

@Mander

I’d hardly equate a sentence of feedback (if that!) to a lesson… “Needs more pace”, “maintain better rhythm”, “horse hangs knees” isn’t exactly asking the moon from the judge, especially since they’re already marking each fence. If they’re worried about time, they could have a scribe write down their final comments as the next horse enters the ring to keep things moving.

Are these statements really more helpful if they come from the judge rather than one’s trainer? And honestly, unless the rider is a complete beginner, these are things that should be self-evident to the rider if they are the issues in any particular round.

@Mander

And of course, the issue with this is accessibility. One of the biggest complaints about hunters is that if you don’t have a million dollar budget, you can’t be competitive. Not everyone has access to other trainers (let alone better ones!) and in addition to the expense, clinics usually require access to a truck/trailer and, if they’re not nearby, they also incur the added expenses of hotels, stabling, food, etc. If a goal of the sport is to make it more accessible, then telling people to “just throw more money at it” isn’t a solution.

Is a judge telling a rider that she “needs more pace”, “maintain better rhythm”, or “horse hangs knees” going to help make the sport more accessible? Accessibility is an issue, but people who don’t have a lot of money need to stop complaining and get creative. Take a lesson at another barn on their lesson horses. Borrow a horse at an out of town clinic. Go to horse shows as a spectator and park yourself at the schooling ring instead of the show ring; watch and listen to the trainers preparing their riders for the show ring. Go to clinics as a spectator. Get a membership from one of the online training programs, watch videos, and go practice at home. Yes, I know a lot of trainers don’t allow for individual creativity at home, so maybe another boarding situation is in order. Stop with the excuses and come up with some solutions instead.

[Rel6]

Right, I’m agreeing with that.

I personally feel like I pay my h/j trainer to teach me at home and in the show ring, help me improve in both arenas, and the judge is a neutral figure (neutral in that they don’t know me or my horse or the progress we’ve made) who evaluates that training in comparison to whatever horses we are competing against. I have never thought of the judge’s role as being one to provide feedback.

[endlessclimb]

@Rubyroo

Are these statements really more helpful if they come from the judge rather than one’s trainer?

I love that the assumption is that everyone who shows in the hunters should have a trainer ringside. It’s no wonder it’s quickly turned into a pay-to-play sport.

What about this person: I’ve been taking lessons at home, I’ve got my own truck and trailer, I can take care of my own horse at the show, but by no means need a hand to hold to go do a 2’6" course on set distances. How do I get my feedback?

Or is that such a ghastly thing to even comprehend that I should shush my mouth and get back in the eventing hole I crawled out of?

[CBoylen]

Well, yes, if you want feedback, you do need a trainer at the show. If you don’t need a trainer then you don’t need feedback. The purpose of a trainer at a horse show is specifically for feedback, not to hold your hand going around a course of jumps.
The judge is paid to rank the class in order. The trainer is paid to give you the information that helps you to rank higher.

[MHM]

@endlessclimb

How do I get my feedback?

Ask somebody to video it for you and review the video on your own? If you know enough to show on your own, you should be able to analyze your video as well.

Or if not, show the video to someone else and get their feedback.

[Mander]

@Rubyroo

Are these statements really more helpful if they come from the judge rather than one’s trainer? And honestly, unless the rider is a complete beginner, these are things that should be self-evident to the rider if they are the issues in any particular round.

I meant them more as examples of length. My point being that people would like feedback on the order of magnitude of a few words, not an essay.

@Rubyroo

Accessibility is an issue, but people who don’t have a lot of money need to stop complaining and get creative.

Yes, people can pull harder on their bootstraps - but nothing has been stopping them from doing so previously and you can look at the sport and see accessibility is still an issue. Nothing is going to be a panacea (not even scores from judges!), but sitting on our laurels isn’t going to fix anything either. As they say, if nothing changes, nothing changes. Why not try a few changes and see what happens?

[MHM]

For those who think it’s a fabulous idea for a hunter judge to provide feedback and remarks for each exhibitor, how many of you have actually ever judged a hunter show?

Just curious.

[endlessclimb]

Again, no one is asking for a 5 minute diatribe of each round.

It’s not hard for a judge to state why a round was good or bad, as an overall impression.

If it’s not in the job description, then change the description. The judge is there because there are competitors, and the competitors want change. Won’t need the judge much longer if the competitors are consistently unhappy and stop showing up.

[Rubyroo]

@Mander

I meant them more as examples of length. My point being that people would like feedback on the order of magnitude of a few words, not an essay.

And again, why is a few words of wisdom more helpful from a judge than from a trainer?

@Mander

Yes, people can pull harder on their bootstraps - but nothing has been stopping them from doing so previously and you can look at the sport and see accessibility is still an issue. Nothing is going to be a panacea (not even scores from judges!), but sitting on our laurels isn’t going to fix anything either. As they say, if nothing changes, nothing changes. Why not try a few changes and see what happens?

I just listed a handful of suggestions for people without unlimited financial means. Why would you edit all that out of your quote and act like I suggested that everyone just give up?

[CBoylen]

There is no “good” or “bad” outside the numerical score. (I realize not every show has numerical scoring, but enough do that a competitor should have a pretty decent idea of what bracket their round hit. If they don’t, they don’t know enough about the hunter ring to be complaining about the judging, and they need more education.)
Your comments would look something like, “ticked the first fence but not as hard as 234 who whaled the in, but a better jumper than 456, although not as nice across the ground as 561 who was a little deep to the outside line, and nowhere close to the lovely 789 who was my clear winner. You were 3rd.”

[Mander]

@Rubyroo

And again, why is a few words of wisdom more helpful from a judge than from a trainer?

Because sometimes judges see things the trainers don’t, and the trainer isn’t the one placing the class.

@Rubyroo

I just listed a handful of suggestions for people without unlimited financial means. Why are you acting like I suggested that everyone just give up?

I’m not - I’m pointing out that none of the things you have suggested are newly available options (with the exception of the online training). Some of them are good! But the availability of those options still hasn’t made the sport much more accessible to people, which indicates to me that some more changes are still needed. I think getting some more feedback from judges would be a helpful change - maybe it will, maybe it won’t. Maybe we try it and say, NOPE that didn’t work! and we go back to the “old way” and try something else.

[dags]

There are various ideas being floated. To be clear, I’m not really calling for “comments” from the judges, but to build out the system so that riders can lose out on ribbons but still (potentially) come home with something they can point to and say, “See, improvement!”.

I think there is a good chance that this is going to have be done in something that is not the hunters. Perhaps some form of hunter/eq hybrid.

@Rubyroo

Accessibility is an issue, but people who don’t have a lot of money need to stop complaining and get creative. Take a lesson at another barn on their lesson horses. Borrow a horse at an out of town clinic. Go to horse shows as a spectator and park yourself at the schooling ring instead of the show ring; watch and listen to the trainers preparing their riders for the show ring. Go to clinics as a spectator. Get a membership from one of the online training programs, watch videos, and go practice at home. Yes, I know a lot of trainers don’t allow for individual creativity at home, so maybe another boarding situation is in order. Stop with the excuses and come up with some solutions instead.

You can only do so much training & sharpening up of a $45k horse; it’s still highly unlikely to out-jump or out-move a $200k hunter no matter how well-ridden. I think there’s space in this sport to reward not only the truly brilliant hunter type, but also the well-ridden & capable one (I also think this was supposed to be the hunter derbies, le sigh).

Two opposing factors here:

1. Costs are not going to decrease to a point that makes this sport accessible.
2. This sport desperately needs to be made more accessible if it is to survive as a middle class activity.

If we cannot decrease costs we must add value to the product we are offering.

That may require re-envisioning how we have traditionally done things.

(and no, I don’t want to go fast and “just do the jumpers”)