That sounds like a fantastic rule that should go into effect for all judges immediately. Immediately!! Lol.
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I have had this long running confusion over whether a dropped rail makes your score an automatic 45, and thatās as good as itās going to get // it can only get worse from there, or if itās just a deduction. If that makes sense, and the more I think on it, the more it might not 
A clear understanding of the standard deductions as a baseline would be helpful. I cling to the dropped rail because I feel like thatās the only clear one but now that Iām realizing thereās wiggle room there, too? I went looking, as I periodically do, for information about scoring and only found one article in another publication so far, and even it gave a range.
Are these deductions in the rulebook somewhere? I feel like someoneās going to say āitās in the rulebookā [Batman slapping Robin meme here]
Can we talk about why a refusal might be less than a rail down? Or the ranges? So, ok, taking it down in the back is less bad than with a front? A refusal can be honest, if the spot is really bad and dangerous? Are these the shades weāre looking at when we talk about the need for judges to have discretion numerically?
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[and yes, I did pick up a copy of Judging WTF a while back but havenāt dug into it]
Is there any reason other than money that entries canāt be limited for classes? Another thing eventing does that might translate overā¦
No. They are conventional scores, not set deductions. Really it makes no difference, other than for the computer. No one cares who had the best rail down or refusal. If you are judging a local show and you have to pin one or the other, or god forbid a whole class of them, all numerical score thoughts are out the window anyway and you use your overall likeability/safety impression. Numerical scoring is useless for local shows. There are too many subjective judgements on adds and lead changes and the horses are all of different types. If you did it numerically youād get them in the wrong order and nothing is scoring over a 60 most places.
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Bear in mind that the whole sport has its roots in the hunt field.
In that context, a refusal is a bigger problem than the rail down, since it could cause a chain reaction pile up that would be a safety issue for the rest of the horses and riders behind the one that refuses.
The rail down is a pain in the neck, because somebody has to stop and reset the rail so that the local farmerās cows donāt get loose, which could result in the local farmer telling the local hunt they are not allowed on that farmerās land ever again.
But the rail down generally wonāt result in a 20 horse pile up, so itās not considered to be as bad as a refusal.
Similarly, a kick out is usually scored as a 50, because if a horse kicks out in the hunt field, it might break the leg of a horse or rider behind it, or injure a hound, which is a huge transgression in that setting.
The sport has obviously evolved to be very different from the hunt field, but the origins of the standard scores can be traced back to that source.
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Here you go, right out of the EC Dressage rulebook!
ARTICLE E 15.7 JUDGING HOURS - BREAKS
When scheduling dressage tests, it is the competition organizerās responsibility to
ensure that breaks are provided for judges according to the following rules:
- No judge shall be required to officiate longer than eight hours in one day and
cannot be required to be on the competition grounds longer than ten hours. - Judges must be given 45 minutes (minimum) for a lunch break. A 10-minute
break should be given to judges once every hour. If this is not possible, a 15-
minute break should be given every two hours.
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That sounds fabulous! And completely unlike standard practice at most hunter shows. Lol.
Typically, the only time a hunter judge gets a break all day is when the ring is getting dragged, and that might not even happen, depending on the show.
This! There is a judge commentating the big hunter classes at Capital Challenge. It is really interesting and very educational, and he is spot on with his commentary/analysis. You can watch for free by signing up for a free USEF fan membership.
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My two cents and recent experience with numerical scoring left me wishing I hadnāt known the score honestly. Local derby: I scored a 75 in the first round, which felt reasonable (I had 2 deep spots but otherwise a decent trip). My handy trip felt pretty close to flawless and I think I even had a bit of brilliance (lol). 75 again. I was really bummed not to feel rewarded for the handy trip and honestly would have been a lot more accepting of my placing in the class had I not known that my handy trip was not rewarded with a score bump. It definitely left me with the feeling that I did not want to show under the judge again as I felt like she just looked at my horse as a 75 quality, so I guess you could argue that I did learn something from the scoring.
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Thank you!
And thank you!!!
And also (what you say above about refusals being a bigger problem in the context of the disciplineās origins) thatās why the article I linked to confused me more, giving these ballparks:
- Trotting 55
- Rail down 45
- 1st refusal 35-40
- 2nd refusal 25-30
- Bad form 50ās
- Starting on wrong lead -5
Iām lucky enough to WFH and therefore keep livestreams on in the background much of the day. I do have the Capital Challenge on now of course and just need to say, Betty Oare is my hero. That is all.
@HipNo34 Those are conventional scores, but I will point out there is at least one judge who will give you a 55 for starting on the wrong lead if you break gait to fix it.
And forgive me if Iām being slow, but I donāt understand why the ranges are confusing there? The refusal conventionally gets a lower score than the rail down, and MHM gives you a good reason why.
@HipNo34 I think the confusion is that those ballpark ranges are final scores, not āDeductionsā (with the exception of starting on the wrong lead). So yes, a first refusal results in a FINAL score of 35-40, not a deduction of 35-40 points. The refusal does get punished more than a rail down.
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Correct.
A refusal generally results in a score of 40. Not a point deduction of 40.
Then if another horse in the same class refuses, it might get a score of 38 or 42, depending on whether the judge thought it was a better or worse round than the first trip with a refusal. Ditto for scores with rails down.
Hopefully those lower scores will be out of the ribbons anyway, but you never know in a small class.
One year at Devon, there was a funny jump that a lot of horses had down, so the judges were giving out scores of 45, 44, 46, 46.5, 47, 47.5, 44.5, etc., etc., just to sort out all the rails down. Iām pretty sure none of them got ribbons, though.
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I meant that I was confused by the article (not MHM!), that I linked to and copied and pasted the bullet list from, indicating the first refusal was āonlyā a 35-40 deduction vs a rail down being a 45.
Betty Oare is a hero for a lot of people!
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I didnāt get that you were confused by thinking it was a deduction and not the actual score, sorry.
repeated facepalm
Thank you!!!
Some of these posts need to be flashcards!
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