USEF officers released a proposed extraordinary rule change

[findeight]

The CORRECTLY used whip is an aid to remind a horse of what it is being asked to do, not a weapon to beat it instead of teach it. Here 1) This horse knows and understands it has been told to go forward and 2) The horse is being disobedient.

A sharp sound from behind will send a horse forward without touching it. For a horse that knows it was asked to go forward, the sound reinforces the ask. In this case the trainer also lowered the rails to make it more inviting for the horse to go over. The horse gained confidence and complied. IMO a good correction that both corrected the disobedience and taught the horse to be confident when asked for forward. Likely helped the riders confidence too.

This was a lunge whip too, not a cracker bull whip. Yes lunge whip can be misused but if abuse was the intent, its very ineffective choice…and loud. Real abuse can be subtle.

How people can construct a history on a random horse proclaiming it has a history of abuse escapes me, every horse that misbehaves has NOT ever been abused. Theres enough obvious, physical abuse out there that needs to stop. And it’s not usually loud

[DownYonder]

I agree that many horses are instinctively suspicious of a lunge whip - they may think it is a snake, which is something horses tend to be instinctively fearful of.

However, horses can be taught to not be afraid of a lunge whip if it is used only in a non-threatening or non-punitive way. Many of us in dressage-land do a lot of lunging and I was luckily taught the correct way to lunge by a classically trained instructor. I have taught dozens of horses over the years about lunging - some who were initially worried about the lunge whip but within a few weeks had no qualms at all about me touching them with the tip of it, letting it rest against them, letting me point it at them to move them out on the circle, etc. They learned that I would never hurt them with it, nor would I use it to scare them into doing - or not doing - something. I have even worked with horses that I had previously trained on the lunge who then left for another program but returned at some point down the road - and they came back fearful again of the lunge whip. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand what was going on in that other program.

So was the horse in question at that show instinctively afraid of the whip because he had not been exposed enough to CORRECT use of it, or was he afraid of it because it had been used on him in an incorrect (punitive) way?

Also - please educate me on this “training show” thing. Trainers are allowed to come into the ring during a class and aid a horse over a jump by lowering the jump or chasing the horse over it? I’m curious about how classes like that are judged - do horses that get aid from the ground placed at the bottom of the class?

[findeight]

I second defining “ trainer show”. Was it a clinic? A pay to have your horse fixed? Exhibition?

[Sarah616]

Two guesses about a “training show”

1. if this show was on a Tuesday, it was likely a schooling day or a chance to get your horse off the farm, into a new place, to jump a set course, but without actual placings.
2. the schooling show series near me offers warm ups even for the jumpers. During this time the trainers can be In the ring to lower the jumps if something is going wrong. Sometimes even if a rider is struggling during their actual class, a trainer can go in with permission from the judge and/or show steward.

[Sarah616]

@findeight

A sharp sound from behind will send a horse forward without touching it. For a horse that knows it was asked to go forward, the sound reinforces the ask. In this case the trainer also lowered the rails to make it more inviting for the horse to go over. The horse gained confidence and complied. IMO a good correction that both corrected the disobedience and taught the horse to be confident when asked for forward. Likely helped the riders confidence too.

This as well. I can get a beginner pony trying to teach a new kid to canter to pick up the canter by clapping from the middle of the ring. Or a pony that doesn’t want to jump a jump, or that won’t keep trotting over a pole on the ground, etc. Just by clapping my hands behind them. I can assure you these ponies haven’t been beaten and take the noise to mean someone is going to beat them.

If you(g) watched Beezie’s part of the horsemanship clinic last month, she did the same thing. One of the kids was struggling to get her horse forward and Beezie clapped at it at the same time the kid legged it/tapped it with the stick. It was just an additional aid to say hey go forward.

[atl_hunter]

But was it correct use of the whip? The jump was significantly lowered, and the trainer didn’t even give the horse one chance to jump it without reinforcement of the whip. Would it not have been a better training moment to give the horse the opportunity to jump the lower jump first? They went right to reinforcement without ever giving the horse a chance.

Furthermore, the rules do not allow for chasing a horse with a whip, and following a horse to a jump while cracking the whip can qualify as chasing the horse.

[findeight]

Well, I did not see this so don’t know the extent of any chasing and don’t think it was judged and in ring help from trainer over show jumps was the point of this “class”. It sounds like just a schooling ring situation, maybe ticketed maybe just first come first served. Seen at many Rateds on non show days.

[DownYonder]

If it was a schooling ring, were there other horses in the ring at the same time? As a rider, I would be seriously PO’d if someone came in and started cracking a lunge whip at another horse in the ring. It’s a good way to create chaos and panic.

[IPEsq]

My guess would be that it’s not the first time horse has refused something. And the scenario with the longe whip has been practiced. I owned a horse that had been totally fried in his previous program about jumping water. To the point where a trainer couldn’t be anywhere near us on the ground, couldn’t make any moves, throw their hat, much less have a whip. It would make the horse suspicious of anyone standing near any other jump for a while, even a simple schooling fence. If the horse is really scared and thinks he might get hit, most likely the chain of events in schooling the fence would not have gone so well. It wound up just being best to hope horse didn’t notice the water, which did happen under an oxer the majority of the time. Less success under a vertical. We jumped Liverpool nearly every week in the USET. Any other pressure, it was totally clear horse had been abused over it in the past, and so we just didn’t go there. We had already tried walking over ones on the ground, feeding grain out of it, etc at home. He was totally fried by 5 years old. Probably why he got sold to the US.

Rather, if this was a schooling / training day, I might think this was an eventer schooling the show jumping. Who is used to being presented with jumps on XC first on the longe. Who isn’t afraid of the whip in so much as they have been touched with it in private or worse, but understands it means go forward and is an extension of their ground person. And so rider just has to steer in the beginning. Keeps both of rider’s hands on the reins. I think I’d prefer one crack to letting the horse stop repeatedly and then upping the aids. From the story, the reinforcement got quieter as the horse found his confidence.

[atl_hunter]

In what schooling ring at a show does a trainer take a lunge whip and crack it behind a horse going to a jump? I have competed extensively from locals to AA (even WEC and WEF) and have NEVER seen this. Like EVER. Your lackadaisical demeanor is honestly part of the problem. A horse should not be scared into jumping. Find a different way to the other side of the fence where it’s the horse’s idea, or find the horse a different career.

[HipNo34]

@Alterrain

BC those spectators clearly thought this was an abusive situation.

Setting aside the particulars of this particular situation (crack, no crack, use of a lunge whip the first time after the fence was lowered, what the heck is a training show, etc, etc, etc) – because every situation is different and it’s own animal…

… all I could think reading this anecdote was, I have known so many situations which could go either way with use of a crop or whip. Situations where it’s not being over-used (one tap behind the leg, one crack of the lunge whip), the horse doesn’t appear to be stressed or frightened but you could probably argue the rider or handler could make one more effort without it. But I don’t believe any harm ultimately was done and the situation was maybe even resolved more efficiently and without it devolving further.

Riders and handlers have to exercise judgement based on the moment and that doesn’t always square neatly with optics for spectators. This is where I worry that we wind up following that moving goal post.

The obvious – hauling off, excessive use of the stick – all of us discussing this here seem to be decent enough human beings and horsemen to know right from wrong and what excessive is.

What we’re trying to parse now is what other people of diverse and possibly countless mindsets and perspectives think. From a safety standpoint, managing 1200-pound animals, that scares me and I think is where SLO risks overshooting its mark.

When you’re working with that 1200-pound animal, and you are a good horseman, your mind should be on that, it shouldn’t have to be on what the spectators think if you use your stick once.

Maybe I’d feel better if I heard a little more about horseman’s tools and managing different scenarios (you know, before you’re in the ring and have to worry about Horrified spectators), and a little more about fan development, educating fans. Because maybe we all have to be prepared in advance to initiate a discussion with the person next to us in the stands or along the rail.

If this can’t be a two-way street, well, then what?

Yeah, and I’m looking at you, little ponies, who laugh in the face of “please” and little heels vainly bouncing off your pudgy barrels.

I kid. But you know.

[Rel6]

Do you use a lunge whip when you lunge? I do. I sometimes even crack it (the horror). Its a “go forward” cue when my cluck is ignored. No different than reinforcing a light leg aid with a touch of spur or a touch of stick to get the response you want, so you’re not nagging.

In this scenario, trainer is reinforcing rider’s “go forward” leg aid with a “go forward” aid from the ground. As far as the environment, I can absolutely see a scenario where this would happen. At a schooling show last summer they let a rider having issue with a particular fence school it with her trainer while the flat class was running in another ring. Some shows are very flexible and understanding with giving time to work through issues - entries and time permitting.

[atl_hunter]

Actually, I don’t lunge my horse.

I’m not a fan of sending a horse around in circles unbalanced, and I don’t agree with using rigs like a Pessoa Rig to create balance.

If a horse needs to be lunged, it is probably a sign that it needs to be turned out more or spend more time outside of the stall. Why is everyone so obsessed with lunging???

[Rel6]

You’re picking a fight with the wrong person - I have a quiet jumper so I save every scrap of his energy for myself.

But I still consider lunging an essential skill for a horse to have. What if the vet wants to see him on a circle without tack? What if I’m at the barn riding alone, he feels off, and I need to see how he goes? What if the horses need to stay in because of weather and I want to see where his brain is at before I get on?

[atl_hunter]

I am not “picking a fight with you.” Lunging is a helpful skill for vet appointments and lameness check, lunge line equitation lessons, etc, I agree.

But ask yourself this - if the horse hasn’t been turned out and you want to check it, why do you need to crack a whip to check it? I think you know the answer - it’s not necessary.

Sure, you can use the whip to guide a horse along. But you can also train the horse (WP trainers do this all the time) to trot when you tell it to trot, and canter when you tell it to canter (jog/lope respectively). Feel free to die on your hill of needing a lunge whip to get your horse going on a lunge line at a time when equestrians really need to be asking themselves if there is a better way. Central Park test…

[Rel6]

@atl_hunter

But you can also train the horse (WP trainers do this all the time) to trot when you tell it to trot, and canter when you tell it to canter (jog/lope respectively).

Yes. By reinforcing the verbal cue when its ignored by lightly waving or snapping a lunge whip.

[atl_hunter]

Lightly waving = fine
Cracking whip at horse that is trained under saddle already = not fine

So now let’s go back to the case in point upthread- cracking a whip behind a horse at a training show in the ring during the class at a jump that has already been lowered. Is that appropriate?
If you think so, then SLO makes equestrian SOL.

[Aussie_2020]

How do you use a lunge whip? How do you train a horse to respond to it without ever cracking, shaking, or touching them with it?

I hope the spectators that were so horrified over this trainers approach never watch The Man from Snowy River. Talk about whip cracking!

[HipNo34]

Not to make light with the pop culture references but my mom likes to reference how questionable some of The Horse Whisperer’s tactics are (I don’t remember which or what; I may’ve read the book eons ago but I think I refused to see the movie – I do know the beginning, where the horse is left to rot in a stall after the daughter gets hurt really burns my mom up ).

She’s always like, “what is wrong with these people? Allll of these people?!”

[DownYonder]

I didn’t say I don’t touch them with it, but I don’t shake it at them except for a gentle “jiggle” and then only if they aren’t responding to my voice cues and need a bit more encouragement. It’s a long and slow process that should start with work in hand to accustom the horse to your voice and hand cues and it takes multiple training sessions to build a partnership that results in a productive but relaxed lunging session. For many horses that weren’t already scared of lunge whips by inappropriate use of them by someone else, I could often touch the horse with the whip within a few sessions - rubbing it gently across their back and haunches, even up and down their legs.

Cracking a lunge whip or even shaking it vigorously are surefire ways to create mistrust, fear, and anxiety in the horse and I don’t believe that the capacity to instill fear has any place in a trainer’s toolbox.

Caveat: I will resort to stronger use of the whip if a horse is rearing, striking, or charging - and by stronger use, I mean shaking it or even cracking it once or twice to get the horse’s attention so I don’t get run over. And then I have to go back to square one in teaching them quiet acceptance of the lunging process. I will also add that the horses that tended to cause the most problems almost always had been “taught” lunging by someone else who didn’t have a good grasp of lunging fundamentals. “Virgin” horses were usually easier as they didn’t come in with ingrained fear of being chased or bullied by someone with a whip.