USEF on horse abuse at shows and class limits

[dmveventer]

@kenyarider

Here it is: Science. research has found that while cortisol and heart rate increase substantially (about 90%) from pre-to-post exercise at home, this jumps to 150% – 360% increase at the horse show – an increase the authors suggest is a result of the additional psychological stress of competition, since the exercise itself did not change (Munk et al., 2017; Becker-Birk et al, 2013; Peters et al.,

I’m not seeing how that indicates horses “never adjust” to shows, just that exercise while at horse shows is more stressful than exercise at home. That makes sense, since riding at a show comes with added stressors from the environment, activity, rider nerves, etc. I think a more compelling piece from that article was the reference to a study that showed increasing physiological signs of stress on each day of a three-day show, but the test subjects were noted as inexperienced young horses so it’s still not great science.

And FWIW I do agree that shows are stressful for horses even outside of their actual “work,” especially longer shows. I don’t need scientific proof to accept that as reality. Some horses are more sensitive to it than others, but we know all horses are pretty good at masking stress so it can be hard to say for sure how they’re feeling. Even the ones that seem to adjust are still dealing with higher than normal levels of stress to some degree, and the effects of that can wear on them over time. There are a lot of things we ask our horses to do that are “stressful” and not all stress is the end of the world, but personally I think the multi-week shows are up there for sure.

[MissMillyMolly]

Being on the road is significantly harder on my show horses than hunting multiple days a week is for my foxhunter. My foxhunter works hard for during the three hours of hunting, but spends the entire rest of the week in turnout being a horse, with maybe a walk day thrown in. Also he is fit and not fat. At shows they stay in their stalls 90% of the time, get woken up all night by the braiders and then do repetitive work that’s much more wearing on their bodies, especially if they are only “hunter fit” . It’s never completely calm and quiet to let them fully relax. They either stay in this environment for weeks (mine don’t) or have to trailer long distances for each show. I’m not a high level eventer but from my observations they lead lives much closer to foxhunters. They compete for a weekend every few weeks, not months on a circuit.

[millerra]

just for info - Actually not arcane, we have Amish here and those horses are trotting down the roads. Soundness may vary.

from an LL eventer’s prospective, 4 classes in a day should be no big deal. Comparing that to a 1 or 2 day event where the horse warms up for dressage (30 minutes typical + test), then a jumping warm up followed by (XC) ~5 straight minutes of cantering w/ jumps, 4 classes/day could be quite doable. Where I see the big difference is we go home after our event. Horse gets 1-2 days off and then we start work back up. It is not day after day of the show life. My typical schedule is flat work 3 days a work, conditioning or gymnastics or a jump school 2-3 days per week. (Low level again). Most eventers that I know do take conditioning fairly seriously.

[MHM]

@millerra

Actually not arcane, we have Amish here and those horses are trotting down the roads.

I was thinking the same thing about the Amish. Those horses look like they really work for a living.

And probably without most of the assorted amenities that the sport horses enjoy these days.

[Amberley]

@millerra

just for info - Actually not arcane, we have Amish here and those horses are trotting down the roads. Soundness may vary.

In fairness I was talking about the records we have of working horses from pre 20th century. But the information is hardly arcane: my grand parents were born into a horse-drawn world and for those without that connection it’s been collected into many books. We know how many hours per day coach horses, cavalry mounts, heavy drafts, farm all rounders, fox hunters, brewery horses worked and we know how any years they lasted because records were kept and lots of people have written about it. We have known for thousands of years that over working horses effectively shortens their working life and overall life. The statements from USEF are completely ignorant and the idea that “everyone should do their own research” is ridiculous. The information exists.

[DMK]

The Amish absolutely use horses as work horses, but the terminology, “coaching horses”, is not descriptive of what they are doing, except when they are entered in a coach class (and they do). Coaching, coaches are specific terms (along with everything else in the carriage driving world). But yes, some Amish work horses have a short brutal work life, others go on for years.

[neigh]

God forbid there be fit show horses. Think about what they drug them with now?

[Amberley]

I never said that term referred to the Amish. Someone else did. I was very clearly referring to historical records.

I don’t know a thing about Amish horses.

[DMK]

Oh wait, did I specifically quote your response? It doesn’t look like it, so I think we can safely assume it’s a general response to the several replies above discussing that.

I get it, the internet can be hard some days.

[Hunterammy2020]

Go to Mackinac and you’ll find out all about how terrible the Amish are to their horses, just ask the horse carriage people there how many they’ve “rescued” from the Amish. The guide mentioned something and so I asked him more. So sad and look what they do to their tails

[Hunterammy2020]

True, the fitter the horses (and working them so much does make them fitter as does all the lunging) results in more and more drugs. Vicious cycle.

[DMK]

I’ve got more than a few friends and contacts in the driving community, including people who work their teams on Mackinac and some ex Amish. I’m probably more familiar than most and way less than some. But like everything else, it’s complicated. Painting the Amish with a broad brush is about as productive as saying every hunter trainer dabbles in pentobarbital…

[Hunterammy2020]

I certainly didn’t mean every one but at Mackinac what I was told by this particular driver was that the majority they have from the Amish have been saved. It’s well known there’s tons of Amish puppy mills so no surprise there’s many that don’t treat their horses well. On the hunter trainers and pentobarbital, that is an extreme which is not what I meant in my comment, but I’ll also call it what it is and tell you at the top of the hunter sport, the use of ACTH, Oxytocin, and Magnesium is highly prevalent amongst all of them. I’m talking about a group of 40 trainers at the top. As you know a lot of people in the driving space, I know far too much about what goes on in the Hunter space.

[DMK]

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with the idea that 40 Amish trainers are too tough on their horses. But there’s a lot more than 40 out there. The same goes for hj trainers…

It also stands to reason that if you are talking to a commercial carriage driver on Mackinac or in a city, their experience with the Amish will be different than someone who is buying a racing Standardbred or a KWPN for the fine harness or combined driving world. The former isn’t getting their stock from high end auctions. They are typically looking for something safe and well broke, but on a budget. The price point and auctions they usually attend are heartbreaking even if there isn’t an Amish community within a 1000 miles. The latter will have a different experience about how the horses are cared for and they sure aren’t paying rescue prices.

Also, there’s nothing new in the hunter world about abusing those drugs, even someone like me is way too familiar with that world (and you need to flip back a few pages in my usef record to find those classes). And even then there was a mix of trainers at the top. Far too many violating the spirit if not the intent. But again, not all. Way too many, but not all.

The one thing we absolutely agree on is that both have far too many people who treat their animals as commodities. But accountability for the bad actors in the hj world is a good thing for the good actors. Painting them all with the same brush is bad for everyone, but infinitely worse for the good actors. That isn’t just true for hunter trainers…

[Rel6]

@Amberley @Demerara_Stables

What massive generalizations. There are poorly conditioned fox hunters, and there are well conditioned jumpers and hunters. Just because turnout isn’t standard in one poster’s area doesn’t mean that is broadly applicable to an entire discipline.

I agree they are different lifestyles, but if we are looking at actual workload, first flight fox hunters and UL eventers far exceed what most hunter/jumpers are doing. Yes, there are other factors that come into play (traveling is hard, restricted turnout at shows is hard) and I’m not saying one job is overall hardER than the other when you look at the overall ask, mentally and physically.

But comparing the amount of time a foxhunter spends in work to the amount of time a hunter/jumper spends in work (as in, being asked to walk/trot/canter/gallop/jump or have a rider on its back) it really is not close. My jumper has never had a rider on its back for more than two hours (and that was a hunter pace, not even in our discipline). I’ve been out hunting for four hours with some long gallop runs. Its just different.

[Demerara_Stables]

I understand your point

My point is, the overall lifestyle that the showing H/J horses live is more taxing on their bodies. Being asked to be high level athletes for weeks on end then locked in stalls with no turnout is going to make them much more sore than 3 hours 3 days a week but turned out on fields in between that (as someone mentioned above that fox hunters do).

[Rel6]

@Demerara_Stables

Being asked to be high level athletes for weeks on end then locked in stalls with no turnout

The people who are showing weeks on end at a circuit are renting barns and turning horses out. There are exceptions, but no turnout ever is not the rule. When I worked for a BNT at WEF we had some on night turnout, and others out all day during the day.

You’re comparing the worst horse management practices of one discipline to the best horse management practices of another - that is not a fair comparison. That is my point.

[Demerara_Stables]

@Rel6

The people who are showing weeks on end at a circuit are renting barns and turning horses out. There are exceptions, but no turnout ever is not the rule. When I worked for a BNT at WEF we had some on night turnout, and others out all day during the day.

Maybe on the East Coast, but in NorCal there are multi week shows with no paddocks and the horses stay the whole time.

And to be clear, any day without turnout is unacceptable, so even a weekend show without paddocks is objectively bad for the horses.

[Hunterammy2020]

East coast I haven’t seen one show with great turnout and most don’t utilize it because of expense. At wec they’re very small paddocks and I think about $400/wk but I think hard to get on a weekly basis as many do circuit. Michigan is the one that really gets me - all those horses that are there from end of May-end of August that don’t see a day if turnout. You should see the outdoor pipe corral “pens” they offer - I wouldn’t expect a cow to be out in one of those nonetheless a show horse. I think essentially it’s the same pretty much everywhere. Turnout is not a priority for people showing at the top on the road.

[kenyarider]

Never saw any turnout in Washington, Oregon or California shows I went to. Thunderbird had small turnout years ago. I think that’s long gone. I agree that the uber rich at WEF have their farms where there may be turnout.