USEF reaction on the Courtney/Mythilus case

Quinidine is extremely toxic, however during conversion treatment horses are monitored by a vet round the clock and any signs of even the smallest of side effects and the treatment is stopped immediately.
My horse converted after 6 treatments, after the 5th he showed signs of mild depression, nothing else, no colic, no diahrrea, not nothing!
He got one day with halter monitor, back home the next and back under the saddle day 3. It does not have to take weeks to recover if the horse showed no side effects from the drug during treatment.

Standardbreds are smaller horses then huge large WB’s. My horse is an 18h+WB and his heart did not fit the monitor properly, so not all that great a case for electrocardioversion. Plus the risks of waking out of anaesthesia can be as big as the quinidine treatment. I wouldn’t say one is preferred above the other.

Why horse’s go into Afib, one doesn’t know really. Potassium imbalance is possible. But I’m sure they did an excretional potassium test on Myth and I couldn’t believe a horse under topnotch veterinary care would have a potassium imbalance gone unnoticed.

Being wrong about one thing doesn’t make an organization necessarily wrong about something else.

I am not even sure people here could come to a consensus on the difference between how these three terms would actually look in any given horse: lame, uneven, tense.

People cannot look at the video of Brentina and agree about what was going on.

I have heard EXTREMELY different interpretations of that few minutes. You can take two people from here who consider themselves absolute experts at seeing correct work, and they won’t both agree if Brentina was ‘uneven’ or ‘just tense’. I dare say what they will declare was going on depends much more on how they feel about Brentina and Debbie MacDonald, than what actually was going on.

And I would not assume which or whose vets pronounced Brentina ‘ok’, or if what that vet says, is controlled by the FEI. I would not also assume what sort of exam was done, what tests were done, or not done. My guess would be that any examination was very brief, but I don’t know that for sure.

There are things that can cause uneven stride at that level of effort, that would be impossible to quickly diagnose and find - OR to exclude for sure. I’ve seen people take horses to multiple vets over a course of months in an attempt to determine what is causing uneven strides at the harder levels.

[QUOTE=FirstPost;3487117]
It is given through a stomach tube every 4 hours, and has about a 60% success rate. Myth was taken to the clinic 9 times and was intubated through his nostril and down his throat to give him this medicine.

I hope truth will out, and if there’s any positive outcome from this mess, it will result in a
more realistic doping policy.[/QUOTE]

I do hope a more realistic doping policy comes out. As I posted, they know the half-lives of these drugs.

Also, Naso-gastric tubes they use for colics are not sterile. If this NG tube was not sterile (the GI track is not sterile so usually doesn’t call for sterile procedure), couldn’t many things be on the inside or outside of the tube?

Wouldn’t it be interesting if someone interviewed all the vets and techs that handled Myth and found out if they use topical Felbinac? After this, if I had an FEI horse I think I would insist that vets or techs use gloves.

[QUOTE=slc2;3489045]
Being wrong about one thing doesn’t make an organization necessarily wrong about something else.

I am not even sure people here could come to a consensus on the difference between how these three terms would actually look in any given horse: lame, uneven, tense.

People cannot look at the video of Brentina and agree about what was going on.

I have heard EXTREMELY different interpretations of that few minutes. You can take two people from here who consider themselves absolute experts at seeing correct work, and they won’t both agree if Brentina was ‘uneven’ or ‘just tense’. I dare say what they will declare was going on depends much more on how they feel about Brentina and Debbie MacDonald, than what actually was going on.

And I would not assume which or whose vets pronounced Brentina ‘ok’, or if what that vet says, is controlled by the FEI. I would not also assume what sort of exam was done, what tests were done, or not done. My guess would be that any examination was very brief, but I don’t know that for sure.

There are things that can cause uneven stride at that level of effort, that would be impossible to quickly diagnose and find - OR to exclude for sure. I’ve seen people take horses to multiple vets over a course of months in an attempt to determine what is causing uneven strides at the harder levels.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps this is for another thread, but I do agree.
At the highest demand for collection and extension, tension can do many things to gaits.

That’s not what I was saying. I said that it is very difficult to quickly diagnose or exclude a condition that would cause an uneven stride at that level of effort.

“Tension can do a lot to a horse’s gait” goes right along with “Brentina was just tense, not lame”.

While the general principle that tension can affect a gait is true, it is not at all clear that that was or wasn’t what happened to Brentina during the Olympics. I think most people would like very much to think that was the case.

[QUOTE=slc2;3489209]
That’s not what I was saying. I said that it is very difficult to quickly diagnose or exclude a condition that would cause an uneven stride at that level of effort.

“Tension can do a lot to a horse’s gait” goes right along with “Brentina was just tense, not lame”.

While the general principle that tension can affect a gait is true, it is not at all clear that that was or wasn’t what happened to Brentina during the Olympics. I think most people would like very much to think that was the case.[/QUOTE]

Tension that only occured in the canter part ?

You have to be honest with yourself and the board, slc2. You made assertions, so back them up. Simple. It’s not about me or anyone else creating any kind of environment for you. You have to accept the environment you created for yourself and deal with it. When you post erroneous material, people will call you on it. Show me the posts that justified your post.

Please don’t derail this thread again with chat about Brentina. She didn’t have atrial fibrillation, last I knew.

Thank you, Firstpost, for the information about Myth’s treatment. I seriously don’t believe that anyone thinks Courtney or her team intentionally tried to skirt the drug testing - I think people believe it is an unfortunate mishap. I think that cases like hers are important because they will spark fundimental changes in drug testing policies for the next Olympics. I honestly don’t think that her reputation is tarnished at all. She is not the first top dressage rider who was surprised by a postive test after a competition.

J.

I think it’s more about having to agree with specific people, and if one doesn’t one gets all sorts of righteous indignation, and what one says, picked apart and analyzed to death word by word to the point of ridiculousness - if you’re looking hard enough at anyone’s posts you can find things wrong with them if you’re determined enough…faced with that, who would ever feel like responding?

Do I have mistakes and erroneous statements? Yes. What does that mean? I’m human and I’m not dead, it’s not that I dislike being wrong at all, it’s that it doesn’t bother me. I expect to be wrong and to learn new things and change my mind - all the time. Constantly. Why? Because hopefully, every day I’m learning something new. As far as I’m concerned, I better be learning something new every day, or there isn’t much reason to get out of bed in the morning.

But alot of this is not wrong or right, it’'s opinion, and people have a right to say what their opinions are, whether someone else agrees or not. I’m not asking you to change your opinion or picking apart what you say, I’m just saying what I think.

And if there’s a ‘discrepancy’ (like those who are screaming ‘The horse got a vet exam! It’s not lame!’) - well, why doesn’t that mean that much to me? There’s a very good reason for that.

When someone isn’t viewing something the same way as you, it usually means some of what was reported, they are interpreting differently from you. Everyone’s got their own thought process, and what they themselves believe and think is important.

Such as here, alot of discussions on the judging, have said, if a horse gets naughty during a test he should get a much lower score and should not win. Others have said, that’s not how the judging is structured, and the response often is, ‘I still don’t like it that a horse can win after doing a big blooper in a test’.

That is a value based statement. It isn’t wrong or right. It’s an opinion. You may not agree but people DO feel that way.

If I say in discussions of (reported) facts, ‘but that part of it doesn’t matter to me’, you can’t just say, ‘You have to think about it differently’, everyone is allowed to view these things differently, last time I checked.

And if you want to talk about specifics and stop being just very *itchy, I’ll respond to some decent questions.

What’s the bottom line? I don’t know what happened with the Olympics this time, but I think it was a mess for us, basically. From start to finish. From selection til the end of the tests and freestyles.

Not that we were exactly alone, LOL. There are often MANY messes at the Olympics. And have been many times before. We expect everything to be perfect at the Olympics, no horses should be naughty, none should spook, no mistakes should appear in the tests.

Most people don’t pay quite as much attention to other major events, but what happens at the Olympics is examined by more people more minutely and with very high expectations, and people seem to get much, much more upset about Olympic results than any other event.

Re vet exams, unevenness, Courtney, etc.

I don’t think one can assume anything about Courtney’s case. People have brought up a lot of good points on both sides and suggested alot of possibilities. Most of the public doesn’t seem to think Courtney would give her horse an anti inflammatory medication, much less take a horse to any major competition if it wasn’t right, but not everyone agrees and they site different issues to back up their view. Several have said they wouldn’t want a horse that was treated for irregular heart rhythm to be shown after that, others brought up their experiences that the treatment can be quick and the horse feel perfectly fine after.

What do I think? I think that riders can have a lot of pressure on them, and also that there’s a lot more people around the horse than just the rider. Based on some information, it does appear some horses ‘convert’ and go right back to work with no further problems.

I think we’ll probably never hear all the details, that there will be a lot of talk, and that I won’t ever be 100% sure what exactly happened, and that we’ll each come to our own conclusions.

As far as lameness, uneveness. There are many possibilities. This is another issue where people have very different views.

How do I see it. First, I think there are many times when a horse becomes uneven in the extended trot at the top level of competition. It isn’t necessarily that the horse is in any pain at all, this can happen simply because of ageing. Old, healed injuries often create a slight imbalance in the stride, so can just the ageing process, and if an injury has healed it can somewhat change the dynamics of the stride.

The horse alters his stride, very slightly, so he ISN’T in pain and can work comfortably. If he did get pushed to take perfectly even strides, it might actually be painful, but this sort of thing is a ‘gait adjustment’ or compensation.

There isn’t necessarily ANYTHING for a vet to find at all. Exams would be normal, there isn’t anything active, pathological TO find. And it may only happen at certain times - such as when there is a certain type of footing, the rider urges the horse more, or the horse gets tight and looky.

Of course there are many other possibilities. The horse could be in pain, and actually what most people call ‘lame’, taking weight off a painful foot or tendon, or the like, every time it takes a stride, such as it would with a bruise or just-strained tendon. If a horse is lame, the gait alteration is more consistently present, but it may take a good eye to see it.

But there are many, many horses that are in a very, very gray area, and even with these, a veterinary exam might not find anything definite to point to.

Under certain conditions, they aren’t in pain but if worked harder, more days or months, or different surfaces etc, they actually to the point of being uncomfortable, not just adjusting the stride. Some horses are just uneven, and aren’t at all uncomfortable.

Normally, when an older horse starts getting uneven, even when they are not uncomfortable, and only show this at the extended trot (so would not be eliminated), the tradition has been that this horse should no longer be shown at the top of the sport, even if it would not be eliminate-able. Even if he’s not actually sore, and is just adjusting his gait. While other organizations may be different, both the rules and the traditions of the FEI community follow those lines (no not everyone follows that).

In fact, this is a very strong tradition, so much that Reiner Klimke, at his clinic at St George Eq Ctr in 1993, said that he personally had pushed for an extended trot at the end of the GP test, so that a certain top competitor would be guaranteed to not win. It would lose enough points that the rider would no longer even place, and that was the idea. The horse was retired after the test was changed. Klimke gave the impression that he and his peers were not at all pleased that the horse was being shown , and that they wanted to stop it. He also laughed quite often during the discussion, which I interpreted as, ‘we have our ways of stopping this sort of thing’.

I asked which horse he was referring to. I was told it was Corlandus. Yep, that’s what I was told. Is it true? I wasn’t involved, so I don’t know for sure. But I do believe this kind of thing has happened and can happen.

Why aren’t such ‘grey area’ horses eliminated? Because a horse can’t be eliminated for being ‘unlevel’ or ‘uneven’ in one movement or even possibly, one gait. If it’s bad enough in one gait, it is possible, but in general, it’s not likely iin one movement or even one gait (which was the basis of a discussion here on stringhalt, and a few people told us their horses were never eliminated for lameness in dressage shows, since the odd gait only shows at the walk - part of that can be that it’s generally felt stringhalt isn’t painful, and that exercise is good for those horses).

The bottom line is that the ground jury inspects horses at a trot on a loose rein, and they are not using all their 4 legs (hips, back, shoulder, etc) to the maximum (no, I don’t think all unlevelness comes from the hind legs, but that’s often the case).

However, the tradition is, that when this happens, you stop showing the horse. If the horse is just adjusting his stride due to age changes, is occasionally uncomfortable, or is frankly uncomfortable. That’s just always been the standard people have been held to (no, it has not always been followed).

Do I know what was going on with Brentina? No. The above is a general discussion of issues and history.

Did you only see it in the extended trot?

Slc, this thread is not about you.

Thank you to those who have provided some useful information and food for thought.

egon, if i answer questions, i’m trying to make it be about me. if i don’t, i’m being a hypocrit and many other nasty things. at least you’re back on form. i was worried that you were sick.

my post isn’t about making it about me. i’m actually interested in the issue and have been thinking about it alot, as most people who are interested in dressage have been doing.

Ridgeback, it is obvious in the videos of the extended trot, I was sticking to that as more people seemed to agree they could see uneveness in the extended trot, they don’t agree as to the cause, some say it’s just tension, not lameness. In the post above i say there are many possibilities.

I think I see a slight unevenness at other times on and off during recent tests of the horse, and some people here have said they also think they see that. For something slight or subtle, I prefer to see it in person rather than relying on a video, though.

[QUOTE=slc2;3496648]
egon, if i answer questions, i’m trying to make it be about me. if i don’t, i’m being a hypocrit and many other nasty things. at least you’re back on form. i was worried that you were sick.

my post isn’t about making it about me. i’m actually interested in the issue and have been thinking about it alot, as most people who are interested in dressage have been doing.

Ridgeback, it is obvious in the videos of the extended trot, I was sticking to that as more people seemed to agree they could see uneveness in the extended trot, they don’t agree as to the cause, some say it’s just tension, not lameness. In the post above i say there are many possibilities.

I think I see a slight unevenness at other times on and off during recent tests of the horse, and some people here have said they also think they see that. For something slight or subtle, I prefer to see it in person rather than relying on a video, though.[/QUOTE]

Ok… I also saw it in the half pass and the canter. SLC you know how egon is I don’t know why you engage her?

Let’s assume

Let’s assume that the judges weren’t blind. In the first part of the test (trot) we already saw only 6 and 5 scores and an incidendal 7.
Brentina moved to the higher scores in the Pa-Pi tour. (7 and 8’s) . At the canter tour the scores dropped down to 6’s and 5’s again and after the flying changes to 4’s and 5’s in the rest of the canter tour.

Not only one judge but all five.

And why would a “gentleman pür sang” which Ghislain Fouarge is, and always will stay, make a statement like “this horse shouldn’t be here” .

Was it tension of Brentina ? I don’t buy it !

Theo

yep.

[QUOTE=slc2;3496648]
egon, if i answer questions, i’m trying to make it be about me. if i don’t, i’m being a hypocrit and many other nasty things. at least you’re back on form. i was worried that you were sick.[/QUOTE]

What questions did you answer in your posts?

i said i will answer other questions, above i tried to just clarify what i was thinking about the two issues. which is basically, i can think of a lot of history and issues and possibles, but i don’t think it’s possible for me to have a firm position on something i wasn’t directly involved in and don’t have more detail on.

said i will answer other questions, above i tried to just clarify what i was thinking about the two issues. which is basically, i can think of a lot of history and issues and possibles, but i don’t think it’s possible for me to have a firm position on something i wasn’t directly involved in and don’t have more detail on

oh my.

[QUOTE=slc2;3496850]
i said i will answer other questions, above i tried to just clarify what i was thinking about the two issues. which is basically, i can think of a lot of history and issues and possibles, but i don’t think it’s possible for me to have a firm position on something i wasn’t directly involved in and don’t have more detail on.[/QUOTE]

thats becuase you talk a load of codswallop and cant back up your statements with facts

My dear girl, that NEVER held you back before. Have the typing fingers gotten tired at this crucial time?