Using an elevator bit?

Hi there everyone, just a quick question- or rather, just something I’d like to hear some opinions about.

I’ve had my horse Dazzle for 5 years now, and we compete heavily in the Hunt Seat events in AQHA- mainly Equitation and Hunter Under Saddle. As some of you know, those classes call for a long and low headset with engaging hindquarters. A few months ago, I started re-introducing my horse to jumping (we had done it a couple years ago.) It seems, with drilling Long and Low in to his head so much, he permanently carries his head this way. He still engages with his hind end, but I can’t seem to get him to lift his front end up at all when approaching or going over a fence. My trainer suggested I try an elevator bit, which is something I am not entirely familiar with. All I know is that it requires a quiet, steady hand to ride in, since it is fairly strong. Does this sound like a good idea? (Not that I doubt my trainer, I’m just curious). Has anyone else had the same issue and tried a different approach? I’d love to get some feedback!

Now, keep in mind, the following is just MY opinion. Sticking an elevator bit in your horse’s mouth isn’t going to accomplish much. What you’re looking to do is retrain a horse’s topline and way of going… I’m not sure you can have a competitive HUS horse and a properly going hunter. You might want to engage your trainer in a conversation about the bit and what they see happening with that and what other ideas they might want to employ. JMHO.

[QUOTE=p3rfection;7215179]
Now, keep in mind, the following is just MY opinion. Sticking an elevator bit in your horse’s mouth isn’t going to accomplish much. What you’re looking to do is retrain a horse’s topline and way of going… I’m not sure you can have a competitive HUS horse and a properly going hunter. You might want to engage your trainer in a conversation about the bit and what they see happening with that and what other ideas they might want to employ. JMHO.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your opinion. I have seen several horses go both ways. In fact, Dazzle actually used to quite well. But since we worked so hard on HUS, that’s where the problem began. I talked to my trainer further, she said in addition, to start some grid work. That way he has to carry himself up and forward or else he’ll become unbalanced, and uncomfortable.
Any thoughts on this?

I would suggest staying out of your horse’s mouth,using a snaffle bit and allowing him to figure out how to use his head and neck properly again.

[QUOTE=AQHAobsessed;7215693]
Thank you for your opinion. I have seen several horses go both ways. In fact, Dazzle actually used to quite well. But since we worked so hard on HUS, that’s where the problem began. I talked to my trainer further, she said in addition, to start some grid work. That way he has to carry himself up and forward or else he’ll become unbalanced, and uncomfortable.
Any thoughts on this?[/QUOTE]

I agree with grid work, but I can’t say I agree with your trainer’s idea that the horse will be uncomfortable… I see plenty of horses that are put in “uncomfortable” places when it comes to jumping and it turns out badly.

If it were my project horse, I would start with caveletti and work on strengthening the horses hind end and topline - making the connection there. Grid work is good too. If your horse used to go nicely as a hunter, he should be able to get back there with a little focused work in that area :slight_smile:

In addition to what others have said, don’t fight too hard with your horse’s natural balance. Those HUS horses are not only trained, but also bred, to go long and low.

You are not going to be jumping very high for AQHA hunters, so you can learn to help him balance and to help yourself not interfere even if he feels low compared to other horses. LOTS of transitions, both between gaits and within the gait, i.e., shorten to lengthen to shorten. Also, be sure to distinguish between your jumping canter and your HUS canter. They are not the same; the HUS saddle canter is waaay to slow and on the forehand. Set poles about 52 feet apart and do four strides between them – that should be your jumping canter. I watched a little bit of the Congress, and IMO they go too slow in the corners and have to push down the lines. Instead, your course should be at the pace that gets you nicely down the lines. It is counter intuitive perhaps, but the better your canter, the less accurate you need to be at the jumps themselves.

Whatever you do, don’t try to “pull” him up. I ride a very low going App, and sometimes coming to a jump, I think uh oh he is too low. However, I work VERY hard on our jumping canter, so he does fine if I just chill and stay the same.

He does hunter/jumper shows, so no HUS for him, but I am familiar with the breed show HUS. Mine can be low but still able to jump nicely if I ride him like he likes. For him, in addition to LOTS of canter work, a placing pole 9’ in front of a low vertical is a very good exercise. Plus, some raised cavalleti, about 10’ apart, three or four in a row.

As far as the bit, I have a two ring elevator that I use on him sometimes, but honestly, it is better as a practice bit for flat work. It helps me feel like he is not so heavy. But honestly, what you need is lots of leg and what I call “physical therapy” for his balance, doing the above described flat work and pole exercises. The older I get, the more I realize that my day to day riding of all my horses is really finding a good physical therapy program for that particular horse. For example, for this particular horse, I do not do lot of trot-in grid work because he much prefers to jump off his left lead. So I do a lot with poles, coming in on and holding his right lead.

Used to have a couple of Paints I did everything with and working with a couple of good QHs on the breed circuits- in Texas and OK yet. Successfully. Top ranked Western Riding, very good in Trail. Points in Hunt seat pleasure, Hunter Hack and even WP, which was not primary goal but done well enough to earn some points.

NO on the elevator bit. Yes on the grids, trot them, lots of them. Yes you are going to have to add more forward- bigger steps coming from back to front translating to going a little faster. All the elevator will do is raise the poll, you need to raise the whole front end. That elevator will force the poll up by itself without the rest of the body to support it… Talk about uncomfortable.

Horses get older and often can’t do what they once did without a little help, have his hocks looked at before you ask him to used them to drive his body forward and up into your hand.

Can we see a picture? He may be built downhill making that elevator even more uncomfortable for him. The other thing, if he is good at WP and the HS rail classes? Maybe that’s the best spot for him…Think about that and his needs as well as what you want.

ETA: If he is a really good Youth rail horse that can do an Eq pattern? Maybe that’s the best place for him. Horses try hard for us but don’t come with a switch to tell them to totally change style and way of going-they get confused and discouraged. IMO yours has spent years learning to carry his head exactly where hours and hours of training have taught him you want it and you have earned alot if points as a result. Unless you want to totally switch and stay switched, leave WP behind? May be best to stay where you are with him.

He has to build the muscles to carry himself higher. An elevator bit won’t help with that and will be penalized in the hunter ring. They are useful for a horse that is heavy on the forehand and leans or otherwise blows through your aids, to get the point across that “hey, you need to be up here,” but they are a training tool, not a fix for a horse that has been conditioned to to move in a nice, balanced, long and low frame.

I would suggest working some dressage into your routine, which will help him to build the muscles he needs to be more “up” and help you teach him to be more adjustable - dressage horses have to be able to go from long and low to up and moving off their hind ends. If your trainer doesn’t have that kind of experience, you might try a few lessons with a dressage instructor to get you moving on the right path and learning some of the feel and exercises that will help you start moving in the right direction.

Coming from dressage and hunters I’d say no to the bit as said above. What I would do is start asking for more slowly. You need to engage your core and leg. Get him pushing forward first. Aqha is much slower than a normal hunter class. Are you wanting to do hunters now or just jump in the aqha circuit? If you want to do hunters you need to start first with forward. Ask for more push from behind with a loose rein. Slowly over the weeks start picking the contact up more and more. Don’t worry if he fights it at first just keep pushing him into it and hold steady in your shoulders and bend your elbows with each stride to give the release. With a more up contact and to lighten the front end it’s going to take the push from behind. Forward doesn’t mean rushing. You should feel him lighten his from over the time and come up to the contact your asking for. When you have him nicely forward he will come into the contact your asking for and push. It’s going to take time to retrain this. A bit is not going to help and there is no fast fix. Just time, patience, and riding.

Absolutely not! I would say use the gentlest bit you can find (I use a nathe on my reformed HUS horse) and frame him up like a dressage horse or hunter for a while; basically, reteach headset. If you can get him going around with is head up naturally without contact then slowly add more feel to the reins and try that route. Either way he needs to get his head up so he can see the jumps and stay light in front. I’ve reformed my horse and nobody knows he isn’t a warmblood. Good luck! :wink:

I agree that you probably need to really work on training for the quality canter. And I’m talking about a nice forward ground covering canter with impulsion and purpose, different from most HUS canters. Soft bit. And a big yes to gymnastics. There are several good books on gymnastics, but check out the Wofford books.

OP, you have to give some thought to the fact that WP/EQ/HS at the QH shows requires a very specific skill set and stylized presentation-it’s a breed show, it’s their deal and what they are judged on.

If you want to start seriously jumping? That’s a totally different skill set and most horses just can’t switch back and forth between a competitive WP or other rail class and the forward galloping skills to jump anything over 2’6". They will always be better at one then the other, fact if you concentrated on Jumping, you would probably have to bid the WP and rail classes goodbye as far as winning over the rail specialists who do nothing else and never are asked for anything else.

So be careful here in deciding what it is you want. If you are over the rail classes and want to do something else? Fine. But if you want to keep doing them and teach your horse to elevate more in front and move along more? Then ask him to go back to “frame” for a rail class? Confusing for the horse and frustrating for you. I know, I’ve done it, the old saying jack of all trades and master of none comes to mind. Hard to be good enough to win when you split your time between skills in the competitive QH arena.

Response

Thank you everyone for your opinions. I have found that what most of you have said is correct: the elevator bit is not working. I did a LOT of bend and flexion work yesterday while driving him from my leg before putting a few cross rails in front of him, and the result was MUCH better. He is built downhill, so that’s our disadvantage, but he has already become much stronger in his front end and carries himself very nicely over fences. Now… we have to work on flat work again too, since I’m having trouble slowing him back down to the HUS canter. He seems happy doing both lately :slight_smile:

As for his hocks, he does have minor hock arthritis. However, after speaking with my veterinarian, he does not see his Hunter/Jumper work to be an issue at all- especially since he is not in discomfort.

Thank you to everyone for your input, it was all very helpful and I’m glad to have heard such diverse opinions!

I just read a great article about horses and their natural carriage and how they figure out how to balance themselves when we stay out of their way.

http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/eventing/harmony-through-self-carriage/

It makes a lot of sense to me, and I feel like it applies to your situation regarding whether or not you will make him uncomfortable with trying to change his way of going.

Really small spin-off…what are one’s thoughts about using a three ring elevator with a converter on the snaffle ring and the bottom ring?

I am going on a hunter pace with a draft mare who can get a little strong out in the field. I’m not overly worried - she is very lazy and will get tired quick but I’d like to just make sure I have some breaks. I don’t want to deal with two reins the hunter pace but dislike the idea of riding with just one rein on the lower ring. I figured the converter would pull on the snaffle as well as give me some leverage instead of just pulling on the leverage. (Side note: pelham with a converter didn’t give me enough breaks last gallop in the field. She was fine - but it took me longer to pull up than I liked.)

3 ring elevator

[QUOTE=Rel6;7240727]
Really small spin-off…what are one’s thoughts about using a three ring elevator with a converter on the snaffle ring and the bottom ring?

I am going on a hunter pace with a draft mare who can get a little strong out in the field. I’m not overly worried - she is very lazy and will get tired quick but I’d like to just make sure I have some breaks. I don’t want to deal with two reins the hunter pace but dislike the idea of riding with just one rein on the lower ring. I figured the converter would pull on the snaffle as well as give me some leverage instead of just pulling on the leverage. (Side note: pelham with a converter didn’t give me enough breaks last gallop in the field. She was fine - but it took me longer to pull up than I liked.)[/QUOTE]

The problem (at least with my horse) in using a much stronger bit such as a 3-ring elevator or a pelham, is hat he HATES them. I’ve only ever been able to ride him in snaffles, he just goes much better that way and does not hold himself as tense. He goes on the bit really great and isn’t heavy until he jumps. I have been working with poles and grids (I just ordered some cavalettis as well), and have noticed some progress. As for your draft mare, what do you ride her in normally? You don’t want to dramatically change the size and leverage of a bit.