V billet versus point billet and saddle stability

I’m looking for experience with V point billets, and whether they can be made to work for my horse, or were just a Bad Idea. Also perhaps whether long or short billets on a dressage saddle are a better idea, and if short V point billets might work better than long ones?

I had my older Passier dressage saddle restuffed by my excellent saddle fitter who also recommended that I shift from long point billets to long V billets. She is willing to change back and refund the charge if we can’t make them work. I like the concept of V billets and the saddle feels good. We will have an appointment soon to look at the saddle, and meantime I won’t use it.

With the point billets, I never had any problems with this saddle shifting forward on steep down hills or at the canter. I rode the same trails last summer, and also cantered a lot in the saddle previously, with point billets.

But now with the V billets the saddle is tending to pivot under the billet straps and end up sliding forward on the horse going down steep hills. The flaps rotate forward over her shoulders and the pommel slides up her withers almost onto her neck (to an alarming degree) though the pommel and whole saddle resets somewhat when we go up a hill. Still, I have a photo of us from the top of rest point of a hill climb on the weekend where the dressage saddle looks like an AP saddle, the flap is forward in front of the dressage pad when it should be straight up and down. And the pommel is high, all tipped back.

And after I did some canter sets on the flat another day, I found that the saddle had pivoted forward, more on one side on the other in the canter. The pommel didn’t shift so I didn’t notice this while I was riding, but when I was untacking I saw that the flaps were just jammed forward and off the edge of the dressage pad. Riding, I thought the pad was slipping back, but when I untacked I saw that in fact the saddle flaps had rotated forward.

Maresy has nice big withers, a big barrel, and a forward girth groove, and is symmetrical. She is particular about her saddles but not difficult to fit, she has a back like a fat TB and does well in Passier or County. She’s a big Paint, apparently a Paint/Appendix cross, but she is fairly uphill and not breed typical. If you were hanging around Andie folk and wanted to BS and tell them she is some kind of Azteca, they’d nod and believe you :slight_smile: Saddle fit issues on her seem to express themselves as saddle shifting. When she outgrew her old County jump saddle, the saddle started to pop off her back and shift left to right. When the flocking became asymmetrical in the Passier dressage saddle, the saddle started to shift to one side. This doesn’t seem to cause pain or worry the horse particularly, but obviously I notice and get them fixed!

I had moderate intermittent problems with the saddle sliding forward years ago when I was using whatever old gear on her, before I got my own saddle. The saddle would sometimes end up riding up her neck if she bucked a bit.

With the point billets on this particular saddle, the girth always ran forward at an angle to her girth groove, and I had a shaped girth to keep it from running into her elbows. With the V billets, the girth runs forward to the girth groove, except when the saddle rides right up the withers and then the girth aligns with the girth groove. I feel like the saddle wants to move forward to put the girth aligned with the girth groove, but with maresy’s big withers, that means the saddle will ride way up her withers.

Educate me, what are V point billets?

the forward billet is attached to a ring which is attached to a nylon strap V so the girth/billet pulls equally (ideally) from two attachment points in the saddle (the rear billet is attached in the normal fashion.

FWIW mine doesn’t shift on a fjord where one could reasonably expect forward shifting due to low withers/downhill build but I do use it with a total fit girth (neoprene liner except at shows where I use the leather liner)

It sounds like the flocking is not right for the saddle and/or the billets possibly might be in the wrong spot. Was the saddle refitted after the complete re-flock? If it is not balanced correctly it will rock and creep around on the horse’s back. One thing you can do it add a stitch to the v-billets to hold it in a spot once it has been adjusted to the appropriate spot.

Hmmm… are you sure the saddle isn’t overstuffed? That’s usually when I’ve had issues with a saddle sliding forward like you are describing.

If that’s not the issue, I would look closely at two things:

  1. Where the girth is lining up. I did have to switch from V to point on my very wide backed, short backed, no withers, forward girth groove Arab because it placed it right between where an anatomical girth would work and where a straight girth would work. He was also 14hh, so there was no room for error :slight_smile:

  2. The pressure on both front & back billets. I’ve had saddle/girth combos where the back billet needed to be a hole looser than the front to balance the pressure.

I have long V billets on my current dressage saddle and like them quite a bit with my current horse (16.1hh Hanoverian mare with “normal” withers). I do use an anatomical girth with this saddle:horse combo because of where the billets fall v. her girth groove.

I’ve never personally had short V billets, so can’t comment on that.

Good luck!

The saddle was reflocked by the saddle fitter to the measurements of the horse. The saddle fitter did an excellent job restuffing my jump saddle last fall so I am confident she can fit saddles.

The reason I think it’s the new V billets is that the saddle actually pivots under the V billets. No saddle I’ve ever seen has done that with point billets. Ever. It just isn’t possible. But these are the only V billets I’ve ever used.

Because the V billets are actuly further back than the point billets, they may just not be a great idea for a horse with a forward girth groove and a big shoulder .

I am using an anatomically shaped girth already.

If you can see the saddles pivoting under neither you, I would guess it never really fit and the fixed billets just held it in place.

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This. Moving the billet back will result in the girth pulling the saddle forward. If the point billets kept the saddle in position, go back to them.

I have a horse who needs point billets, a TSF girth and I still have to cross billets.

Not necessarily. I have found that a saddle that fits stays in place with a (dangerously) loose girth, but gets pulled forward if the girth is done up tighter.

Yes this is my thought. The V billets want to make the girth drop straight but the saddle can only do so if its up the withers. It’s just a totally different physics down there compared to point billets.

Maybe i am missig understanding what was done to the saddle? I am assuming what you were talking about was the balance strap in back as the V. Do you have a picture? Normally if the saddle is moving forward, you actually change the saddle to a point and balance (V) web.

Both billets are now V billets. The front billet is now slightly behind where the old point billet sat. Both billets are attached to webbing Vs and csn slide around.
Are you recommending a point billet for the front billet and a V billet for the second billet?

With point billets, i had no front to back stability problems in this saddle even when the flocking compressed unevenly and there was a bit of lateral tilt in the wither gullet. I went mountain trail riding in this saddle. I use a shaped girth and saddle was really stable.

The wierd thing now is the flap swinging forward even when the pommel stays in place. I think it’s just a totally nonfunctional idea for this horse and saddle combination.

Saddle fitter said it would take pressure of maresy’s big shoulder but ironically its worse.

I had no problems with the point billet, saddle fitter wanted to experiment. I think she had an idea V billets were always best :slight_smile:

I have point billets in front (had to be added after I got the saddle) and V billets in back, and that combination seems to work well for my mare with her big belly and forward girth groove. She has narrow shoulders, and unlike most Morgans has good withers.

I did completely misunderstand how it was configured. I apologize. I do not think I have ever seen that before. If you can, I would try tacking down the front V so it can not move more towards the front billet position.

So there is this whole idea around point billets adding pressure to the shoulder and or causing the tree points to dig in to the horse’s back. First off the structure of the saddle should never be on the horse’s shoulder so why it would it cause pressure? The flap say of a jump saddles does not count. It is not structural and really does not put pressure on the shoulder. The shoulder just slides underneath it.

I also suggest if the tree points are digging into the back with the point billets, the tree is the wrong shape/angle/width/length for the horse.

I don’t think anything was digging into maresy’s back. I just googled around and couldn’t find any online images of two V billets, only of a front straight point billet and a back V billet.

Fitter left the old webbing so she can change it back quickly.

I think I am such a good customer that fitter knows she can use me as a science project :slight_smile: as I’m interested in how things work too.

I just don’t see how two V billets could ever be stable. The panel just rotates under them.

Has anyone successfully used both V billets or just the rear one?

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I have a dressage saddle for each of my two horses. Both have a front point billet and a V rear billet. One of the saddles has the rear billet stitched to the V so there is no movement. The other saddle’s rear billet has a sliding attachment to the V - I sometimes think it would be better if it were fixed in place for that horse, but it works when the saddle fits.

I use a front point billet with rear V billet on my P.R.E. and I don’t think I could get away with 2 V billets for the reasons you’re experiencing. I did ride him with two straight billets but the saddle moved. It fits him well but he’s short backed, and also has a forward girth groove. My horse also has big shoulders and is rather fleshy. The point billet doesn’t restrict him. Having the saddle move or slide forward does. His saddle offers good shoulder freedom and with his build this billet set up is optimal. I think it also helps that he’s grown a more prominent wither now too

It’s worth a try to change and see what happens I suppose, then atleast you know what you were doing before is the best option and works for the horse.

Well, you know my Andie cross. He has a very flat back, large barrel and ok withers. Very forward girth.

The front billet is a point billet attached directly to tree point and the back is a V balance billet. Seems to keep it steady and in place. Also use an anatomical girth.

really like the point and v bullet configuration, but I think 2 V billets would make it unstable for such a flat back on a wide barrel.

I tried a saddle with a front V billet and while I did like the shoulder freedom it provided (my horse has long withers, big shoulders and forward girth groove), the fitter thought that the risk of the saddle sliding forward even with an anatomical girth was too high. I wound up going with a point billet in front and the trick was also to make sure that was angled properly along with tree shape in front and the front panel shape. Some point billets I tried we’re still way too far back.

Also where they attach can make a difference. For example, horse needs a shorter front panel and I need a forward flap. This combo allows for a point billet to be positioned properly on the saddle and to angle correctly to the girth, even still using a TSF girth. A point billet that is too far back or at the wrong angle will also not only pull the saddle forward but even further restrict the shoulder.

If you can’t get the shoulder to fit without a V front billet, then it sounds like the overall fit of the saddle is wrong for this horse. BTDT tried dozens of saddles on my horse.

The saddle in fact fits just fine with the point billet. I have been using it with a point billet for years and years, front point billet attached under the knee roll so as far forward as possible. This was my saddle fitter’s science experiment :). She was sold on the idea of two V billets through her master saddle fitting course in Europe, and says they are a relatively new idea, hence why I couldn’t find any photos of two V billets online. She just thinks they are in general a better idea not that there was any real problem with my saddle that needed fixing.

She has taken the saddle away now to reinstall the front point billets on the knee roll. We will leave the back billet on the V and see how that works.

Saddle fitter says the double V has worked on other horses, and it’s “interesting” to see which ones it doesn’t work on.

Sounds like lots of people on COTH use fixed point front billet, V back billet, but very few using two V billets?

Anyhow, interesting learning experience for me!