Vent/Plea for Suggestions -- Service Dog Needs Surgery

[Rackonteur]

I’m not sure if I should post this here or in the Venting thread.

One of my elderly neighbors is disabled and got a new service dog this past summer. The dog is young and in training, not fully qualified yet. Just last week he was diagnosed with some sort of hind-leg issue that has both legs suddenly giving way when he is walking.
My neighbor has talked with a local vet and was quoted “thousands” of dollars for corrective surgery.
My vent is that this a purebred dog and I wonder if his condition is genetic. I know nothing about the breeder but I have learned here on COTH that a reputable breeder stands by his puppies and his bloodlines. If it were my dog I would be thinking about getting my money back from the breeder and looking for a sound dog.
But another neighbor is thinking GoFundMe etc. to raise money for the surgery.

I don’t know. I’m not a dog person (I like dogs but I’ve only ever briefly owned a puppy, and that one came with breeder-specific health issues and was returned).

What I’d like to know is, what would an experienced dog owner do in this case? What would be the best way to help this neighbor?

[Kyrabee]

Did he/she get the dog from a service dog organization or did they get the dog independently.
My friend is on her second service dog that she bought independently. What a mistake. The most recent one is now lame from an unknown cause. She has insurance on them but she has spent thousands (5 figures for sure) between the two of them. Other than notifying the breeder and the breeder volunteering to take the dog back, if it was bought independently by your friend, they are on their own.

My friend…the first dog ended up totally unsuitable temperament wise. The breeder offered another dog but she wanted something larger. The breeder of the first dog and owner of the training facility) did give her training for the new dog (which is thousands). The second dog is having a lameness issue that they have yet to figure out.

She would have been much better off to register, save all the money she has spent on these dogs and get on a waiting list from a reputable service dog organization but she had the idea she would do the raising and training herself. So now she has a ‘retired’ hyper GSD and her lame Leonberger. Oh and the Leonberger is dog aggressive . She is getting better but not what you want in a service dog. Service dogs are a HUGE commitment and the handler has to be ready for whatever.

Susan

[Simkie]

Just a wild ass guess from the description, but it sounds like the dog might need bilateral cruciate repair?

If so, that’s often caused by under conditioning, and keeping them overweight. Pediatric spay/neuter is also a risk factor, and it’s seen more in large and giant breeds.

While there may be risk factors that are in the hands of the breeder (having hip dysplasia looks to increase risk) it’s very largely about keeping them thin and appropriate exercise.

And just being purebred doesn’t mean diddly about the quality of the dog or the responsibly of the breeder. There are a lot of bad ones out there.

[Rackonteur]

Thank you very much for your reply.

I will try to find out where my neighbor got this dog. He is pretty much a DIY sort of person and for example thinks he knows a whole lot more about horses than he actually does, so I wonder if he is actually able to properly train a service dog himself. His previous one, same breed, was a certified service dog and I actually never saw her do any sort of special “work,” but she did get to go with him everywhere including to medical appointments and into grocery stores. Seemed a very well-behaved dog (until she attacked another dog one day!).

@Kyrabee

She would have been much better off to register, save all the money she has spent on these dogs and get on a waiting list from a reputable service dog organization but she had the idea she would do the raising and training herself.

I appreciate your saying this, because it is what I think about my neighbor, but I don’t have your knowledge or experience. I am really sorry your friend had this misfortune. I do know that when I have wondered if I could qualify for a service dog, I have learned that there are a lot of stringent requirements both for the person and the dog.

[fledermaus]

He needs to talk to the breeder first. Purebred dog breeders who belong to a dog community have a reputation to uphold. Many breed clubs have a code of ethics such that dogs are taken back by their breeder if they need rehoming. Refunds of course are up to the breeder, but they are supposed to take the dog back.

Of course there are a lot of jerks out there, God knows. But worth a try.

Cruciate ligament repair is very expensive. My dog partially tore hers two years ago and because she is a lightweight dog in hard condition the orthopedist told me to just walk her on a leash for six months. A very long six months that was, but it saved me thousands of dollars (which I then spent on my horse vet bills …)

[mommy_peanut]

Purebred does not always mean wellbred.
Being a dog breeder doesn’t always mean they are a good/reputable breeder.

Based on your limited description, it sounds like an environmental issue more than a genetic one.
Too many people keep their dogs fat & unfit.

[Rackonteur]

This dog isn’t fat at all, unlike several of the other, older, dogs in my building. I have no idea what sort of breeder bred this dog, I’m assuming it’s one of those crappy breeders who don’t care about breed standards and health concerns.
It’s just a crappy situation and my other neighbor, who wants to do the Go Fund me thing, isn’t interested in our neighbor’s rights and any other legal concerns. I myself can’t see spending thousands of dollars to “fix” a genetic problem that may recur as the dog ages.
My idea of helping would be to involve some sort of ADA local group or senior support organization and get the guy a healthy dog.
But I’m only in the outer loop, not the inner loop. I’ve been asked to research fundraising, not legalities. And that is crippling in itself.
Sigh.

[Simkie]

There’s not much info to go on here, but if this dog has blown his cruciates, that’s not a “genetic problem.” At the very least, it’s vastly multifactorial, with conditioning, weight and age at neutering being hugely important, and the breeder has very limited to no control over those things.

There are a whole lot of reasons this dog may be poorly bred by a uncaring breeder, but blowing a couple cruciates (if that’s even the issue) isn’t really on that list.

[kmwines01]

How old is this dog and what size? If truly young (under a year) very unlikely to be bilateral cruciates (not impossible but less likely). Otherwise back legs most common young dog surgical procedures bilaterally would be luxating patellas or hip dysplasia. There are other issues of course but those 2 would be the most common surgical procedures.

[S1969]

@mommy_peanut

Purebred does not always mean wellbred.
Being a dog breeder doesn’t always mean they are a good/reputable breeder.

This.

My guess is that this is not a well-bred dog, and not a service dog either. Because a service dog means it’s already been selected and trained for the service. There is no such thing as a “young, not trained service dog” unless you’re the organization that does the training.

What service is this untrained dog supposed to be providing to an elderly disabled person anyway?

So many possibilities including spinal issues, injury, or genetic issues.

Surgery…how will elderly disabled person rehab the young dog?

So many issues with this whole situation…

[Rackonteur]

Thanks for that info.
I wish I knew more about this dog’s case, so I could ask more questions here, but all I know is what I’ve been told by my other neighbor (the fundraising wannabe). Hopefully she will be able to get somewhere with that.
He’s a sweet little dog.

[Rackonteur]

@S1969

My guess is that this is not a well-bred dog, and not a service dog either. Because a service dog means it’s already been selected and trained for the service. There is no such thing as a “young, not trained service dog” unless you’re the organization that does the training.

What service is this untrained dog supposed to be providing to an elderly disabled person anyway?

So many possibilities including spinal issues, injury, or genetic issues.

Surgery…how will elderly disabled person rehab the young dog?

So many issues with this whole situation…

Your guess is the same as mine. This dog’s owner trained his previous service dog himself (for what that’s worth!?!). I’ve never seen that dog or this one perform any service such as I’ve occasionally seen/read about on TV. I think his job may be to detect blood sugar spikes/drops as his owner is diabetic. I do know that his predecessor wore a “uniform” coat, but aren’t those available to anyone online? They don’t have to be actually earned?
I just know this dog, and his predecessor, have privileges other dogs here don’t have (riding the bus, entering stores, etc.). And are very well behaved, quiet (except for time each one attacked another dog!)

Good question about the rehab. I don’t know how the owner would do this or get it done. The dog gets walked on a regular basis AFAIK.

This is a situation where one neighbor needs help for their dog, another neighbor wants to raise funds for surgery, and I was asked to help but would rather see the dog returned and replaced with a healthy, trained service dog but am trying to do what I’ve been asked to do. Can’t just wash my hands of it, we’re all neighbors, but I’m the only one thinking the solution would be a trained, sound dog.

One neighbor asked me “Well, you wouldn’t replace your cat if she suddenly needed surgery, would you?”
Duh, no. But my cat is 18 years old, has been with me for 17 1/2 years, wasn’t bought to perform any services (wasn’t bought at all), and does have chronic health issues, which our vet is working with us on.

[BowPonies]

This isn’t entirely true. A Service Dog does not have to come from an organization. Owners can train their own service dog (often with the help of a trainer, but not always). For example, my last SD I sent away for obedience training and then I independently trained her tasks. Currently my current service dog in training I am again owner training, while also going to training lessons once a week for extra support.

Not that I think an elderly gentleman is training his own dog, but it is possible and an option. Perhaps he is working with an organization more frequently for lessons / owner training. Just giving the benefit of the doubt.

Additionally, tasks are not always the glamorous things you see on TV like guide work, mobility, etc. They can be more subtle - diabetic alert (a simple nose boop if blood sugar is too high or low), high heart rate alert, behavior interruption (such as self harm), item retrievals, deep pressure therapy, “blocking” or crowd control, etc. These things are not things that are continuously going on and may not be apparent or performed in your presence as a passing neighbor. For example, my SD performs self-harm interruption, deep pressure therapy, and crowd control - these are typically performed either in my home or out in public at a store or restaurant, and not just randomly in my yard or even my work place, because that’s what is most usually needed for my disability.

[Warmblood1]

I just skimmed responses so hope I have something useful to add.

If the dog is a service dog in training, very likely he is not from a SD organization. They almost always leave fully trained.

Hind end issue could be a number of non-genetic components. Slipped disc, issues with the knees, issues with the spine, etc.

Any guarantees with the dog would be established in the contract. The breeder does not have to offer any insurance or warranty. Owner would also need to establish that the health condition is indeed genetic via veterinary diagnostics and diagnosis.

Owner can contact the breeder to see if they will help but unless listed in the contract, breeder isn’t obligated to.

A GFM would probably be best so the owner can get training assistance and the surgery needed.

[S1969]

@BowPonies

Additionally, tasks are not always the glamorous things you see on TV like guide work, mobility, etc.

I do know what a service dog is. But this person was described as elderly and disabled, so no, I did not expect that they were capable of training a service dog. (And, quite honestly, if you need a service dog, it’s kind of hard to be training one instead of using one…how does that work?)

The reality is that there are a lot of “service dogs” that are actually emotional support animals, or worse - just a pet that people want to have with them. Which, sure, I get. But that doesn’t make them a service dog.

Emotional support dogs are not covered by the ADA and can be excluded from buildings, apartments, transportation, etc. How does someone prove that their dog is a Service Dog and not an Emotional Support Animal?

[Kyrabee]

@S1969

And, quite honestly, if you need a service dog, it’s kind of hard to be training one instead of using one…how does that work?)

Yes. I have watched my friend struggle with her two self trains. Each dog has had a significant issue that has been very hard for her to work with (hyper-reactiveness of the GSD and now the dog aggression of the Leonberger). She thinks she needs a dog for mobility. She has some inner ear dysfunction that makes her balance wonky at times and she often needs something to brace on. However, a cane or walker would work too . There is no reason she can’t have dogs in her life and teach them to do all kinds of things for you (fetch, alert, etc). An actual service dog, in my mind should be rock solid in public.

We have gone on vacation twice…once with the GSD and once with the Leonberger. Both times, I had things I wanted to do so went and did what I wanted to do without her as she was afraid to take the dogs out. Yeah…I am not waiting around because of that. I don’t think she realized how tied down she would be with dogs she is trying to train herself. The Leonberger is getting better but she has to be ever vigilant in case other dogs might pop up.

I will say the GSD is a very good alert dog. She caught my sleep apnea! When we went on that first vacation, the dog slept between our beds. Every time I quit snoring, Aspen would very purposefully come place her chin on my arm and wake me up. She did that several times on the trip. So, when I got home, I spoke to my PCP and got a sleep study. Yep, sleep apnea.

Susan

[BowPonies]

Just because someone could benefit from a service dog doesn’t mean you snap your fingers and suddenly you have a service dog waiting for you to use. Regardless of if you are owner training or receiving a program dog there is still a long wait, during which you will have to cope and survive without the dog by using other means. As a disabled veteran, I’m lucky that I could potentially get a program dog at little to no cost. However, the general public doesn’t have that luxury and fully trained program dogs run $15,000-$25,000 or more. Additionally, most programs have extremely long waits (the ones I looked into that provide vets with dogs had waits of up to two years). Finally, many programs have stipulations that are just plain difficult to meet sometimes - I was denied a program dog because I already had an existing dog in the home; another program I tried but just couldn’t work with because the person running it was so hostile and abrasive that it triggered panic attacks. For some people, owner training makes the most sense because it (can be, but is not always) is cheaper, faster, and the dog builds the bond with the owner starting from day 1 of training vs 1-2 years into training. Owner training is still costly and time consuming (1-2 years of active training) and obviously has risks (I went through two dogs that didn’t make it as SDs before I finally found the right one). Yes, sometimes it is incredibly difficult to owner train as someone with a disability. My dog is for PTSD that is not able to be well controlled with medication. A lot of times it’s difficult to take my dog on training sessions out in public, so I have support systems in place to help (once a week training sessions with a trainer, driving an hour just to run an errand with a family member or friend to take advantage of the trip as a training session, etc.).

I’m well aware of the ADA as well as state laws (not all states grant public access rights to SDs in training). I agree that too many people take advantage of a lenient system by bringing ESAs or pets places. If the dog is well trained/quiet/well behaved, I don’t usually pay any attention to them. Unfortunately most times that’s not the case and these ESAs are disruptive, reactive, etc and cause problems for those of us who have legitimate service dogs. It is usually easy to spot the fakes vs the SDs in training or those already trained. It’s unfortunate that many stores, restaurants, or other establishments don’t know the laws and are afraid to kick people out.

Regardless, I don’t think it is fair to speculate whether this gentleman needs a service dog, how he is training the dog, or whether it’s worth “fixing”. This whole thread just feels incredibly nosy and judgmental.

[Rackonteur]

Then I suggest you take your arguments for-or-against the training of service dogs or therapy dogs or companion dogs or whatever and start a new thread about that.
I started this thread to ask for ideas on how to help my neighbor with his dog’s health conditions.

Thank you to everyone who has replied with useful information and helpful ideas!

[vxf111]

Why would someone recommend a giant and short lived breed as a service dog? I’m perplexed!?

[hoopoe]

Wobbler Syndrome is another possibility for this dog. Not up on long term prognosis with surgery, but what I have read isn’t promising