Have you tried trotting or even walking mid course? If he grabs the bit on course, he may need to have the rug pulled out from under him and he gets to have fun walking any of the open sections until he learns to respect your hand and seat.
[QUOTE=BigMick;8434780]
i have this same bit on my draft cross for hunting and it’s not nearly enough bit. How do you have yours set up?[/QUOTE]
I find that the Golden Wings double jointed is a relatively mild bit, even using the gag ropes or hooked through both ‘rings’. I like it because it looks kind-of cool and gives me a little bit more, at a clinic, than my regular loose ring double joint that I usually use.
It is certainly nowhere near the brakes of the other wonder bit I have (thin single joint). That one has some serious rating power.
I’ve had him to a point where I can walk him through the water complexes and he’ll slow down going out, but during the course he likes to go. This is the only time I ever see him more thoroughbred like than Percheron. He is normally very very lazy and will do anything to walk, but you go xc and he’s the opposite. He doesn’t do it to endanger me because he will occasionally go into a slower canter if I get unbalanced. I just started jumping this spring that is why we got him because he does take care of his riders, but he doesn’t like to slow down during the course. I took him to a hunter pace and in long stretches he was fine walking on a long rein, but it’s like he knows when it is actually competitive. He wants to win it, it seems like.
I ride my big (strong) draft x out hunting in a PeeWee snaffle. She gets angry in a stronger bit which defeats the benefits. I think it’s the pressure on the side of the mouth that works for her. I bought mine on eBay for $20. At that price it’s worth trying.
Sometimes you have to play around with bits to see what works.
No one has suggested a Waterford. Some horses really like them. I hunt my TB in one sometimes. Currently I ride my TB in a Mickmar short shank bit. The mouthpiece looks medieval but it’s a pretty mild bit – he loves the mouthpiece and is just more responsive in it. When he’s feeling stressed he flips the roller around.
However, there’s only so much you can do with the bit. It sounds like your horse is just taking over. You don’t want to have so much bit that your horse is then too backed off. My suggestion would be to choose an event to school and go out with the intention of keeping him at a trot the entire time, circling as necessary.
Two more suggestions. Do you ride with a neckstrap? I teach all my horses to walk/trot/canter off the pressure of a neckstrap. When I’m hunting, I don’t want to always be on my horses’ mouths so I use the neck strap to help regulate speed. It’s not as effective when we are galloping after hounds, but it does make them think. I also teach them a verbal “slow down” cue that acts as a half halt (it’s a trilling sound).
If you are getting unbalanced, you may be getting pulled forward. A neckstrap is also helpful because you can hold onto that and get your upper body back . . . I see this in the hunt field – riders who get pulled forward by their horses and then can’t sit up and use their backs and thighs to half halt.
I used to have him in a waterford snaffle, but he wasn’t responding to direct pressure as much. I haven’t ridden him with a neck strap, but he does know the word ‘easy’ as a kind of calm down cue. He is great with a snaffle for dressage, but jumping he needs a bit more.
I feel like we need more information before suggesting different bits. You say you started jumping this past spring and got this horse as a bit of a packer, correct? Is it possible that what you are feeling is a horse that knows its job and is just forward to the fences? Or are you actually getting ran away with?
Sometimes it can feel like you’re traveling at Mach 9, but then you watch video of yourself and it’s like “huh . . . sure felt faster”.
I would be really cautious about bitting up before you get some more jumping mileage; catch him in the mouth a couple times in heavy hardware and that whole ‘take care of the rider’ thing might go away. NOT to say it’s okay for him to run off with you if that’s actually what is happening. Just offering a different perspective.
Do you work with a trainer? And do you know what kind of bit his previous riders were successful with?
I do have a trainer and he came with me when we schooled with two others. He would jump cleanly and very very nicely, but he was a pain in the butt to get to stop after a jump. His old owners used a bunch of different bits because he had different rider since he was leased out. I’ve see photos with D-ring, baiter (which we use in dressage), some with a running martingale, some with an elevator, so I am not 100% sure. And yes he is a definite packer and that’s what I need.
This may or may not apply, but I recall a group jumping lesson a few years ago with a draft cross in the lesson, schooling cross country: horse running through the bit before and after the fences, getting stronger and stronger, not listening to the aids, not slowing down. The rider becoming worried and frustrated and eventually hanging on the bit and starting a pulling match.
Coach jumped on, and within a minute or so, she was riding the same horse on a nice soft rein. Like the saying goes, it takes two to pull.
This may or may not be the case here, but it’s a lesson that I learned that I keep in mind when the horse I ride starts to pull.
Just chiming in on another thought . . .as a lifelong owner and lover of the Big Boys . . .
Sometimes they “rush” through a course because . . . .well . .they just want to be “done”.
Especially the packers. I have a horse exactly like you describe. Basically a stick and spur kind of guy. Once he knew he was on course, he’d barrel through it all just so he could go back to the trailer and get tied up and go back to sleep. He was a smart horse.
People would see him going balls to the wall X-country and say “OMG you need to lunge him/warm up/ hack him until he settles down and behaves on course”.
Nope. Complete opposite.
After a nice easy warm up, I’d just do my x-country test, (or schooling, or whatever) and THEN hack him right after for about 30-50 minutes. NO going back to the trailer and untacking. We’d cross the finish and just keep briskly trotting off around the grounds. Until he learned that there was no real “End point” after a course.
This, of course, is the horse that will see a mounting block anywhere on the facility and try to steal over next to it and STOP, as if to say “We are done here, get off, I want to go back to the barn and eat and sleep”
Is he really going too fast? Or just feels like it. I’ve know quite a few people who think their horse is running away but they really are not.
But you are petite so you may need more bit. Lots of good suggestions. Really it just depends on the horse what will work so you just need to try a few things. But also work on your timing and how to use your body to get him to listen. Not get into a pulling match with him.
I’ll chime in with my 2¢. I had a big OTTB with similar issues who hated a Waterford, but was a doll in a broken segunda. I tried it after reading a thread on here. Made a world of difference.
I would not recommend a segunda for a green rider. That bit is very, very severe and only for a rider with extremely good hands. When I was a working student we tried the segunda with some upper level jumpers when they first came out and they backed off so much we universally stopped using them. And the rider had great hands. They are strong, strong bits. I have no problem with someone using them, but probably not a great choice for someone just starting jumping, my hands certainly weren’t that reliable that early on.
Maybe a two ring elevator or if the horse is a real freight train, this: https://www.horseloverz.com/english-horse-tack/english-bits/full-cheek-snaffle-bit/professionals-choice-full-cheek-double-snaffle?gdftrk=gdfV27555_a_7c1161_a_7c2883_a_7c5_d_508499&ev_pid=200-129517&ev_ppid=121242618250&ev_adtype=pla&ev_cmpg=Shopping&gclid=CLCpndyT18kCFUsbgQodtvUHuw
Very effective, not too harsh. Don’t hang on it, though. It is meant to use with a light touch. If you don’t think your hands are pretty decent, this will be too much too. More forgiving than the segunda though.
I have had several draft cross foxhunters and when hunting, ALL of them required a stronger bit than a regular snaffle. They were easy peasy, simple loose ring snaffle at home. But when they got running and I had to stop… well, that wasn’t happenin in any snaffle.
The wonder bit is rarely enough. I have preferred a tom thumb pelham, short-shanked. I currently have a very big Georgian Grande in training and he does very well in a mullen mouth. My previous draft cross (perch-tb) horse in training went well in the broken segunda (not the straight bar segunda) and in a longer shanked snaffle mouth pelham. Another bit that I do not have is a kimberwicke- I use the converter straps on the pelham if the horse is being tried out by a customer and use the double reins for myself.
I am not a fan of gag bits for no legitimate reason other than I have not gotten around to trying one. Lots of Draft Crosses tend to “curl” and I would think that a gag would encourage that.
OP said the Pelham they are using isn’t enough. That is where I’m at a loss as most of the time I find a Pelham perfect. I agree that gag or the dutch gags (bits with rings) often cause curling.
Perhaps try a longer shanked Pelham? I have a myler Pelham that a few horses have really liked.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8438705]
OP said the Pelham they are using isn’t enough. That is where I’m at a loss as most of the time I find a Pelham perfect. I agree that gag or the dutch gags (bits with rings) often cause curling.
Perhaps try a longer shanked Pelham? I have a myler Pelham that a few horses have really liked.[/QUOTE]
which type of mouthpiece do you prefer in a Pelham - ported, single-jointed, double-jointed, or Mullen mouth?
I don’t like jointed. Most of mine are Mullen mouth. Rubber and then plain metal. The myler one I have has a port for tongue relief (it’s the level 2 low port comfort Pelham)
I’ve always thought that gags lift vs curb bits (Pelhams, kimberwickes) “lower” and sometimes curl.
I have a draft x who rides out and does xcty in a gag because he gets enthusiastic, but it’s just to get his attention. You can’t really stop a horse with a bit. It’s an aid. It has to tap into training.
I hear you, bfne, and I generally prefer a Mullen. If OP’s horse is too strong in a Mullen she might try a rubber jointed. It could really help. Some horses, esp drafty horses, will really lug on anything solid so that is definitely an option if she is currently using a Mullen Pelham. I always keep one around even though it isn’t my go to.
Another thing to try–something with nose pressure like a Myler combination bit or a hackabit. Some horses go really well in those and many have pretty forgiving mouthpieces for novice hands.
I have nerve damage in my triceps and neck problems from a fractured neck 15 years ago.
When I was riding a strong TB,I used a mikmar for hunting,a happy mouth Mullen for home and a Pelham with Mullen mouth for shows. ( jumping/eq).ni started with the 3 ring elevator on the third ring but the Mikmar short shank worked much better and he really liked the roller.
The trainer would ride him with a snaffle at home,elevator bit for jumping classes.
