Horse is obviously sore in both front feet with hoof testers. Thin soles, grows toe fast, not much heel, typical tb foot. Vet would like to see 2 degree wedge shoes, magic cushion hoof packing, and pads for next shoeing to get all better. Farrier says angles are the best they’ve been and will not work with vet. Opinions, please.
Do you have xrays to work off of? Without those, I don’t know how the farrier can claim the angles are good. It’s important that your team can work together, so if the farrier can’t play nice you might want to find one who can. Also ensure that the vet is being cordial with the farrier. When I have to give recommendations toa farrier for a client, I always try to tell them what I think needs to be accomplished and then ask/discuss ways that we can make that happen that have worked in their hands. It fosters a good relationship between me and the farrier, and we all benefit. Especially the horse.
11 Likes
post pictures and see if you can move it to horse care. MC can be too much for some thin soles, wedges can sometimes actually do more harm than good…both vet and farrier may have somewhat legitimate logic. My farrier would not put a 2 degree wedge on with out Xrays. If farrier is just refusing to work with vet and giving attitude rather than explanation then ditch them, but if they are trying to explain their doubts hear them out. One thing seems certain: Xrays should be taken
1 Like
Their opinions may not be mutually exclusive. Let the X-rays settle it and hopefully facilitate collaboration.
2 Likes
I third the xrays if you haven’t had them done yet. Neither vet nor farrier can say what best at this point without them. Have both review xrays and have them both come up with a game plan.
2 Likes
Needs rads, but your vet’s plan worked on the one I had with feet that met that description.
I can also see both being right, and I agree that x-rays would be important.
The reason I can see both being right is that sometimes what we do to make the horse feel better, isn’t always the best for long term soundness. So a heel sore horse may feel better with a wedge, but long term it could cause a more serious degeneration/connective tissue issue. So you vet might be coming up with a plan to get the horse sound NOW, while the farrier is thinking longer term.
4 Likes
Here’s the 87th recommendation to get xrays and ask fhem to meet and work from them. I had a laminitic pony and vet’s advice to farrier (relayed through me) created friction / defensive reactions. Got xrays and they could both see specific changes to be made. Wasn’t as bad as vet thought, was worse than farrier thought. With objective ‘data’ to work with (rAther than just “I think you’re doing it wrong”) they could now literally draw on the screen the shape/angles they wanted to see, and collaborated on how/how quickly to get there.
5 Likes
Meant to add that I offered to pay them for their time for the joint consultation, neither would let me.
3 Likes
I agree. The best farriers I’ve had were very reluctant to use wedges. They explained to me that in most cases, wedges just crushed the heels further, thus not improving the overall foot. In such cases (they do a LOT of eventer ottb feet) they would view xrays and probably use a rail/rocker shoe, to kick the breakover forward, shorten the toe, and lift the heels (align P3) but allowing them to grow down without being crushed.
Example of a TB who came to me with long toes, low heels, flat sole, weak walls. 2nd shoeing. https://photos.app.goo.gl/LzAwNanam8fCMjyh7
2 Likes
Thanks guys. Apparently there is some history between these two that is toxic, which I was unaware of. I just want this horse to be comfortable before asking her to do much. Vet still thinks needs to be in a wedge for a shoeing, farrier is still defensive and thinks angles were improving, Suggests Keratex and hoof sealer. Vet says wedges will be needed regardless to get soles off ground.
Rim pads would get the soles off the ground without potentially crushing already low heels
5 Likes
Do you lean one way or the other, in terms of whom you trust? Maybe seek an outside expert opinion to help you decide. Doesn’t sound like these guys are behaving very professionally.
I heard a really interesting presentation on this type of shoeing recently (heard it twice and I’m still not sure I could explain it to anyone else.). If your farrier and vet have experience with it, it might be something to investigate.
1 Like
Oy.
Allow me to be the 53rd recommendation for Xrays. Is the horse positive to the testers everywhere, or is it localized to one specific spot? (heels etc). Is the horse actively lame while working or just footsore on rough ground?
How long have you been working with the farrier, and are you confident in evaluating their work? I ran into some really rough trouble in the late summer/fall because of farrier work that was not good - but feet are one thing I am not super knowledgeable in - my previous horses have all had iron feet and I’ve been lucky! My coach had to step in and help me understand that my mare’s feet were in poor shape. The farrier I was using talked about how mare just had bad feet with poor quality, and never seemed to be able to make any progress. After 6 months of good work, mare’s hoof quality has done a 180 and she is sounder and happier than she’s ever been.
My point being, if this farrier has been working on the horse for a while and the hoof is sort of consistently in poor shape, your vet may have good reason to be less than confident in their work. No farrier can magically turn TB feet into Morgan feet, but a good one can do a lot to improve them with a good trim and proper shoeing, if warranted. My vet, in this case, would likely gently suggest a new farrier and starting with a good trim and shoe job and seeing what that can do to help, rather than sticking the kitchen sink on the horse’s foot - but not seeing the horse, the foot, the specifics etc. I have no actual comment on that.
On the other hand, not all vets are that knowledgeable about the intricacies of trimming, shoeing, etc.
so… uh… get xrays, I guess :S
I think we need more info - how long has this farrier been shoeing this particular horse? How lame is the horse and how long has the issue been going on? How long have you had this horse? How many more cycles does this farrier think it will take the horse to get to where it needs to be? Are you on a strict showing/training schedule? How experienced is your farrier? Did the ground change suddenly from wet to dry/hard? Without knowing a lot of the variables, it is hard to say if x-rays are really warranted or necessary at this exact time.
I am not a huge not a fan of wedges or pads (aside from snow purposes) for the most part. IMO, if the sole is making contact with the ground such that the horse is sore with a shoe on, the overall balance of the hoof isn’t right in most cases or its not wearing the right size or style of shoe for its needs. If the horse is very sore and can’t have a reduced work schedule or time off, then I might consider rim pads or regular pads as in interim idea. I don’t particularly like wedges as anything more than a temporary solution, because the strain on the tendons concerns me.
I trust my farrier implicitly and follow his recommendations because I know he his experienced and educated enough to do so, and I have a long track record of a lot of years with him making the right calls. I am of the school of thought of leave the foot stuff to the farrier and the rest of things to the vet. With that said, I understand that rome was not built in a day and that the farrier can’t fix a ton of bad trimming/shoeing overnight and it will likely be a process.
Yup, gonna tell you to get xrays.
I’ve been there, done that with poor farrier work on a horse with not-great feet. If the farrier tells you that weird, poorly angled feet “just grow that way” or something similar…you need a new farrier. As others have noted, some horses will never have great feet. But all horses can get good, correct angles for their conformation, and no horse should be chronically foot sore or outright lame because they aren’t being trimmed and shod, if necessary, to deal with thin soles.
Is the farrier refusing to put pads on a thin-soled horse? That alone would set off an alarm bell for me. Even if he disagrees with the vet’s choice of padding, a horse with soles so thin they’re causing noticeable soreness will likely feel noticeable better with a pad. And, correctly done, a few months of shoeing in pads should help increase sole thickness.
1 Like
If the vet and farrier can’t figure out how to have a proper professional relationship, then I would examine switching from one or both of them, because it isn’t fair for your horse to be caught in the middle of their issues. You need to be confident that they can put aside their history so that their first goal is giving your mare the proper attention and help she needs…not their pissing contest.
However, in my non-farrier opinion, using wedges to “get the soles off the ground” is poor logic. Wedges are used to correct improper angles and do have negative consequences, such as continuing to crush the heels that are already low and already contribute to a broken-back HPA. Vets love wedges for their quick “he’s sound!” result and farriers hate them for the long term consequences. But either way, there’s many other ways of getting the soles off the ground, including rim pads or by using a leather or plastic pad with a regular shoe to help protect the sole and allow it to get some thickness.
My mare did great in leather pads with magic cushion, which wasn’t the vet’s first choice. He wanted equipak, which my mare could tolerate for a couple weeks before getting sore. So sometimes you do have to play around with the combinations of pads and packing to get the right fit for the horse.
Yes, get Xrays. If the vet and farrier are trying to even have this conversation without suggesting or requiring Xrays, fire both of them and find a more competent pair.
3 Likes
