No nerve blocks?
Sometimes, when you have more than one leg involved, a good block in one of the affected legs will show you just how lame they are in the other one(s) and you can keep working from there. Although wandering lameness does bring me back to neck…
Why in the world are you not doing simple blocks to identify what leg and where the problem is originating from? Or rule out the legs?
Not going to jump on the vet but never had one scratch their heads and play guessing games on your dime then leave with no solution in sight for a chronic problem that’s still unknown originating from an unknown location or locations.
I dunno, sounds like a waste of time and money just to be told to Bute for 10 days. We could tell you that on here for free. BTW, I would stick to the Bute, that’s not considered long term and has a specific, known effect on pain and inflammation backed up by research and years of experience. The other stuff might be anecdotally effective but could skew the pain killer test results one way or the other wasting more time and money. If you are worried about tummy trouble, use Previcoxx/Equioxx.
Not sure what using the Bute test to prove pain is going to confirm though. Consensus of many experienced observers here is the horse is in pain even if we can’t tell exactly where it’s coming from without knowing what blocked out and where. Likewise lasering the whole horse…its your time to spend but what do you believe it will accomplish without knowing where and what the actual problem is? What if it’s a hairline fracture?
I still think that with the muscle fasiculations you mention, you need to consider th spinal area either side of the withers,
plus or minus the involvement of the radial nerve.
Wrapping and poulticing the fronts certainly won’t hurt. Laser, magnetic boots, and possibly also ultrasound therapy (US after definitive diagnosis). Thanks to his history of injuries, I at least have a good arsenal for treatment.
You need to stop doing all these random treatment modalities when you have no idea what is wrong with this horse. At best, you are going to make it more difficult for a vet to actually diagnose the problem and at worst, you are causing some harm. All these modalities have specific protocol for use and you are ignoring that.
I too am baffled that you’ve had a vet out, what, 3 or 4 times now and simple nerve blocks haven’t been done.
You would be better served to have 1 visit with a vet who specializes in lameness diagnostics than to have many farm calls with a vet who doesn’t know what they’re doing on that front.
I mentioned at the beginning of this post that part of the reason we held off on extensive diagnostics is that his entire life situation was about to change (moving to from a place where he was stalled entirely too much to a new barn with 24/7 turnout)–many of the horses at the place he left were off or sore in some way, as they were out in hard fields with uneven/rocky terrain and the footing in the rings was getting pretty bad and was always far too deep, making any soft tissue issue worse.
Evaluating him somewhere where all conditions conspired to make him less sound would have been pointless.
That being said–I’m only actually lasering areas that I KNOW are a problem from years of having this horse–he comes up with stifle and hock issues occasionally (they have been injected, and may be again), and has a healing bowed tendon–those are things that need to be maintained and addressed, regardless, and cold laser is less invasive and more effective than many oral solutions for managing chronic conditions. This is just basic life-management for a middle-aged horse of his assembly.
The logic behind waiting until we moved was to see if constant turnout helps as it’s very likely that his issues were exacerbated by being locked in a stall 21 hours a day and going out and being a lunatic for three. Better footing at a new place will also be informative.
If his issue is arthritis/ringbone based or any other chronic orthopedic concern, movement should help.
I’m pleased to say that after a week of constant turnout, he is already showing signs of improvement. I trotted him for a few steps yesterday and he was basically sound (unfit, but no head bob).
Why didn’t I have a vet do nerve blocks already? Because as much as I’d like to be, I’m not made of money and the overlapping costs of trailer repairs (necessary to transport him) and paying board at two places to get him to a better situation (to basically get him out of harm’s way) had to take precedence over what is not an urgent issue–he’s plenty happy, just wasn’t fit to work under saddle. His overall health and well-being were the primary concern, and turnout and continued rest were the first course of action–I wanted him to settle into his new environment and get a baseline for what we need to examine.
Now that he is settled into his new lifestyle, and absolutely loves it, I can prepare for the expense of proper diagnostics, if they are even necessary anymore. If his mild arthritis was the issue, made worse by being locked up all the time, it might be that increased movement and inflammatory management are enough.
The two main vet options that I have are the conservative type, and there are so many things going on with him for so many reasons (stifles funny behind because he’s completely out of shape, for example) that it would be a waste of money to block one thing and have another thing look worse than it actually is, so to that end, I agree with getting him going a bit under saddle (provided he is comfortable enough) and then seeing what is most obviously bothering him via nerve block or x-ray or both. There is a vet that specializes more in lameness from the same practice where my current vet is, and I will admit that some of my hesitation is not wanting to offend one vet by asking the other one to come out…but I will do what my horse needs.
I’m not avoiding proper diagnostics, but I also have to be practical about timing them out and not rushing into a bunch of expensive tests before we know what is actually necessary. I can’t tell you how many horses I know that came sound again just from time and turnout, though I am by no means ONLY doing that–they are certainly two major factors into figuring out ANY ongoing issue with no clear source. Being in a stall all the time was killing him and making things worse.
Now that he’s had a week to relax, I will put him under saddle a few times just to load the leg–no intense work and if he continues to improve, hooray, we will do blocking and an x-ray just to rule out anything serious, and if he seems off again, we will absolutely do any additional tests as finances allow.
None of this is urgent as he is HAPPY and not currently in pain, it’s only my desire to make sure he’s as comfortable as possible and my selfish desire to ride that make further diagnostics necessary.
I’m not going to do a bunch of invasive things to him just to get him sound for my own benefit. If he’s only pasture sound, but happy and comfortable, that’s fine with me. But I will do whatever I need to to ensure his maximum comfort and longevity. The reason I started the post was to help brainstorm in the meantime on what could be causing the issue since most people at the old barn felt it was minor and that he was usably sound (I disagreed), my trainer seemed to think I was imagining it, and the vet couldn’t really pinpoint anything, and I was getting frustrated…so I turned to the wild speculation of the internet for possibly similar scenarios. I’ve clearly been a little frustrated with how cavalierly it was handled but of course the other extreme is do all the tests right away, and I’m stuck in the middle by dint of financial constraints and observing the horse improving. If it was a hairline fracture or something of the like, I don’t think we would have gotten as far along time-wise as we have, and I certainly hope the vet would have at least suspected that…but my first priority is to rule out any bone issues–I’d just rather have a better idea of where to x-ray. As far as soft tissue, he had a very recent ultrasound on that leg that didn’t pick up anything else unusual other than the bowed tendon.
I guess I’m saying, I’m doing what I can do at the current time, and I will do more as soon as I can afford to and that will include imaging and a chiropractic evaluation once any damage to the neck/spine is ruled out.
There’s just so many things one CAN do, it’s the hardest thing to figure out what is most efficient and effective.
I’m posting an update here in hopes that it helps someone else when they are experiencing a similar issue and scouring forums. This is his second ride in three days at the new place–lasted all of five minutes. Sticking with the vet’s plan of working him for ten days (ish) and then re-evaluating. I’m seeing a bit more of a hip-hike in the RH on this one, but maybe others can see something else. Again–I’m not doing this in lieu of veterinary care, but I am very impatient and constantly trying to figure out how to help my horse be comfortable, so it helps to have others looking, too. I will say that he is worse than he was on Sunday (since he was basically sound that day) but better than he was a few months ago when that video was taken (which was also the last time I’d ridden him prior to moving). Apologies about the video quality…dark horse at dusk. I did bump up the exposure and he’s wearing white bell boots up front which kind of helps see what is happening there. He’s been more focused on trying to alternately carry his neck and stretch it down and forward a bit. I’m only offering supporting contact with my hands, not asking for any kind of collection. I added in a few strides of canter to test the hock issue theory, as the trot sometimes improved after the canter, keeping in mind the vet expects me to be working him normally but I am being more conservative.
It moves around for sure, but seems to end up back in the left hind. I had immediately gone to the left hind in the previous video. He doesn’t look bad in front at all.
Honestly, at this point, I think you need to stop trying to make him comfortable, take him off meds and keep working him until you can really identify a culprit. Otherwise you are making him feel better with meds and masking the issue, which isn’t going to get you to the root of the issue. Give bute for 10 days and see if he’s still lame isn’t diagnostic.
Or alternately, since you don’t have the funds to do a full workup, put him out for 6 months to a year, mostly ignore him, and see what you have after that. There’s not a lot of point having the vet come out repeatedly but not doing any diagnostics- it’s just a guessing game.
Still looks like LH to me, up high, like stifle or SI. And I would still be considering the neck.
[QUOTE=wanderlust;8677454]
It moves around for sure, but seems to end up back in the left hind. I had immediately gone to the left hind in the previous video. He doesn’t look bad in front at all.
Honestly, at this point, I think you need to stop trying to make him comfortable, take him off meds and keep working him until you can really identify a culprit. Otherwise you are making him feel better with meds and masking the issue, which isn’t going to get you to the root of the issue. Give bute for 10 days and see if he’s still lame isn’t diagnostic.
Or alternately, since you don’t have the funds to do a full workup, put him out for 6 months to a year, mostly ignore him, and see what you have after that. There’s not a lot of point having the vet come out repeatedly but not doing any diagnostics- it’s just a guessing game.[/QUOTE]
Oh, yes, that is actually what I’m doing, though–sorry if I was unclear–he’s not on bute (still very new into the move, I just don’t want to stress his gut–plus I want the diagnostics to make sense) and he is working this week. The Devil’s Claw won’t work fast enough to interfere with results over the next few days. He’s always fallen apart behind when he’s not fit, so I’d believe something in back. I think I was seeing the RH moving a bit like a post to take the weight off the LH, and I do feel like I’m seeing a hip hike back there. He has been very cranky about his LH stifle and has known stifle issues (but they’ve never caused him to be off like this, though he’s also never been out of work this long).
I think he has a few things conspiring against him but I do hope we can find the main thing that is causing the gait irregularity and discomfort.
That movement up front is a bit short and paddling for him–he normally has a nice, extended and floaty trot with a big shoulder swing, but even if it’s a hind end issue that may make the front end work differently to compensate, so maybe that’s part of it.
When the vet comes out after the working period we will block and x-ray and hopefully narrow this down.
If we can’t figure anything out and he doesn’t improve, he now lives somewhere where he can be just out for a while so it’s good to have that option. I’ve definitely seen marked improvement in his overall movement and well-being from having lived outside for the past week and a half, now. I think being locked up so much was definitely making things worse.
I’ll try to take video each time I ride for my own edification, might be informative later.
Something going on up high behind can certainly make them appear to be dragging themselves along with the shoulder, particularly the diagonal shoulder from the problem hind.
Honestly, he is lame enough that I would not work him anymore but get the vet out sooner. Maybe a different vet. It’s pretty darn bad when they are head bobbing like that from the hind end.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8677477]
Still looks like LH to me, up high, like stifle or SI. And I would still be considering the neck.[/QUOTE]
Yep… I agree–I see something behind and a more pronounced ‘hike’ this time around, and I am definitely still focusing on the neck re: that shoulder twitch. He’s definitely sore in the left stifle on the ground right now, and SI is probably out of whack just from everything that’s been going on. Good news is, he has no trouble at all with his carrot stretches, so there may be something in the neck but it’s not impeding his range of motion. He does have a big 'ol dent on the right side of his neck now, along with some chronic fibrosis that he’s had in that spot for years, but the dent is new (and is a cumulative adhesion-based dent not from a recent trauma), so I think there’s something going on there, for sure.
A chiro adjustment is in the cards after we rule out any serious issues with x-rays.
Thank you guys for following this! It’s actually kind of a relief to have it sort of centralizing somewhere more visually obvious.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8677477]
Still looks like LH to me, up high, like stifle or SI. And I would still be considering the neck.[/QUOTE]
Yep… I agree–I see something behind and a more pronounced ‘hike’ this time around, and I am definitely still focusing on the neck re: that shoulder twitch. He’s definitely sore in the left stifle on the ground right now, and SI is probably out of whack just from everything that’s been going on. Good news is, he has no trouble at all with his carrot stretches, so there may be something in the neck but it’s not impeding his range of motion. He does have a big 'ol dent on the right side of his neck now, along with some chronic fibrosis that he’s had in that spot for years, but the dent is new (and is a cumulative adhesion-based dent not from a recent trauma), so I think there’s something going on there, for sure.
A chiro adjustment is in the cards after we rule out any serious issues with x-rays.
Thank you guys for following this! It’s actually kind of a relief to have it sort of centralizing somewhere more visually obvious.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8677504]
Something going on up high behind can certainly make them appear to be dragging themselves along with the shoulder, particularly the diagonal shoulder from the problem hind.
Honestly, he is lame enough that I would not work him anymore but get the vet out sooner. Maybe a different vet. It’s pretty darn bad when they are head bobbing like that from the hind end.[/QUOTE]
True, and good points. Not riding him is my personal inclination as well, but it’s a tough balance because only fitness will help if it’s his stifles acting up, and I will definitely have the vet out (and I am asking around for lameness specialists…it’ll be a different vet). The rides are mostly walking and they last ten minutes, tops, so I’m not pounding him into the ground–just trying to build up a little more muscle to help him in general. I think the vet will be able to see what’s going on well enough whether he gets built up a bit or sits, as we certainly won’t fix him in a week, but I don’t want to let him go to pot completely and can’t have the vet out until next week for various reasons. I guess I’m trying to find a guilt-to-time ratio that works for him.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8677504]
Honestly, he is lame enough that I would not work him anymore but get the vet out sooner. Maybe a different vet. It’s pretty darn bad when they are head bobbing like that from the hind end.[/QUOTE]
I agree 100%. You couldn’t pay me to ride this horse right now the way he is. :no::no: I wouldn’t be trotting him let alone canter. If you are worried about him getting stiff due to other issues you have already mentioned, then I would be hand walking him only.
It sounds like you have already spent a considerable amount of money trying to diagnose the problem. On top of that, he started out with past lameness issues and problems that have become chronic and overall poor conformation (your words and description). Sometimes it’s just not possible to pull them out of it if they have had a hard life in the past and retirement is the best and humane solution for the horse…and your wallet!
What about doing longer hand walks instead?
[QUOTE=Daventry;8677536]
I agree 100%. You couldn’t pay me to ride this horse right now the way he is. :no::no: I wouldn’t be trotting him let alone canter.[/QUOTE] Let me clarify- I wouldn’t ride him either, wouldn’t pass go, and would take him directly to a major clinic for a nuke scan and rads of neck/back/etc because you are going to spend almost as much money fishing around with a series of blocks as you will on the scan and rads. Because what is going to happen is the horse will block out on one leg, and the lameness will swap to another. And maybe even another. And by the time you’ve blocked two legs, potentially up to a high suspensory, you are in the thousand dollar plus range and close to the cost of a scan.
But I know what is like to have minimal money to do a full workup, and in those cases, the vets have suggested to ride them until something clearly becomes the culprit, or put them out and ignore them. I’ve opted for the latter both times.
[QUOTE=omgtb;8677508]
Good news is, he has no trouble at all with his carrot stretches, so there may be something in the neck but it’s not impeding his range of motion. He does have a big 'ol dent on the right side of his neck now, along with some chronic fibrosis that he’s had in that spot for years, but the dent is new (and is a cumulative adhesion-based dent not from a recent trauma), so I think there’s something going on there, for sure.
[/QUOTE] The bad news is that one of my horse has major pathology in his neck (OCD fragment, narrowing intervertebral spaces) that also caused major front-end lameness, yet has an excellent range of motion in the neck according to our vet/chiro. Good ROM isn’t proxy for lack of issues.
The dent is a very likely indication that something is going on in the neck, whether it is arthritis, a chip, or something else. Portable X-rays usually aren’t strong enough to get through the muscle to see the spine, although if you have a vet good with ultrasound they may be able to see if something is going on in that area of the neck.
I realize you do a lot of the routine therapies yourself, already have the laser, etc. but I agree that at this point, your dollar will go farther if you just haul to a good clinic. I’ve been there.
He’s out 24/7 and moves around a fair bit on his own, so I don’t know that he needs hand walks. I can focus more on backing in hand and other stifle exercises, but really, it’s a waiting game until I can have the vet out. The vet who told me to work him for 10 days and then have him re-checked is not a hack, she’s from a well-respected practice (to the point where when I asked for recommendations for other lameness vets, that practice is the only one that’s been recommended to me so far), so of course I feel guilty about riding him, but it’s also what the vet told me to do and the #1 piece of internet advice for people having problems with their animals is “call the vet.” Rock and a hard place here–if it’s something chronic and orthopedic (knowing, for example, that he has bad stifles) then I should be getting him fit. There aren’t really any hills to speak of at the new place, either, so we are limited as far as strengthening exercises.
I know. I feel terrible that he’s uncomfortable in any way, and I only want to make him more comfortable, and if I can’t follow my vet’s advice (which has heretofor been fairly sound) I’m even more at a loss.
I think getting a vet out with a different eye (they have a vet in my current practice that specializes in lameness) would be the right start, rather than rushing off to do a bone scan, which frankly, I can’t afford right now. I can certainly save up for it, but my main concern is getting a proper evaluation. Maybe a different vet will see something that narrows the issue down without blocking everything from toe to poll. Even video analysis isn’t a substitute for an in-person evaluation by a professional, and I can speculate all I want, but that’s the first step to knowing what actual diagnostics are called for.
I get it, I do. I’m not trying to substitute proper diagnosis and care with theraputic modalities–just trying to manage his many other issues and comfort level in the meantime.
I have a call in to New Bolton to compare the cost of a lameness workup or bone scan there to the estimated cost of starting the workup at home. It might be that I can afford to start the diagnostics at home and when/if more extensive diagnostics become necessary, I’ll be prepared to take him down to Penn.
The reality of life is that you and all of your animals will have medical requirements at the same time and that is what’s happening right now, so I am doing as much as possible/whatever is necessary without going too extreme. I’m just trying to be smart and efficient to both get to the root of the issue as quickly as possible and without putting my horse through unnecessary procedures or throwing money at a full workup blindly.
I’ll do what needs to be done, and I wish I could run him down to the clinic right now, but that isn’t the reality for us at this precise moment. I’m hoping my inquiries into a lameness specialist will be enlightening and forestall the need to haul him in.
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