Viewing judge's scorecard for Eq rounds?

[Lusoluv]

Hi, a good friend of mine has a newer Eq horse she’s started showing. Horse is older, very experienced, etc. She’s been finishing in the top 3-5 on a regular basis, but would like to know what she needs to do better to move up. In the “old days” we were able to review the judge’s scorecard to see why we got our overall placing. She said this is no longer the case. Just this weekend she asked a judge to see her card, he said “no, that’s not allowed”.

Is this the case everywhere or just this judge’s stance?

[anon67067638]

Look in the rule book because my local circuit says that the trainers are allowed to just no parents. Is it just that judge or all?

[fourfAlter]

As far as I know, this is not allowed.

Out of curiosity- was this a rated show? Did the the friend approach the judge directly? If so, was it after the show was completed or while the show was going on? (Second of which is a huge no-no)

I would imagine if it was a schooling show, and friend asked horse show management at the end of the show, they may allow her to see it. However, I doubt it will be anything helpful, unless she knows the judge’s shorthand.

[findeight]

Up to the judge. However…accepted etiquette is to ask another show official to ask the judge on your behalf. You do not approach them directly, kind of a long standing tradition to protect the judge from those looking to argue or fight. And sometimes judges are busy shuffling cards or need a break so they will say no. Sometimes they don’t care to discuss it and they don’t have to, they are paid to rank the class in front of them not to give extensive feedback or a clinic.

If friend asked for a brief review of why she was 4th in a particular class, most judges will answer that- “You had a late change, your left heel is up and back, puppy dog hands etc.” If friend asked judge what she needed to do to improve, most judges will say ask your trainer it’s really not their job to teach.

Sonetimes at the really small schooling shows, some will. Seen it end in a screaming match between riders trainer/parents and judge when the advice contradicts what rider has been taught. Most judges have experienced that at least once and refrain from offering training advice, just stick to specific things that led to deductions. If that.

Let me add this would only be AFTER the show is over to avoid the appearance of asking for the judges help then going back to show another class under them or share judges preferences with others yet to show. That, in fact, is not allowed.

[SnicklefritzG]

I’ve seen the judges cards from some of the BigEq classes. I got to sit behind two well known judges one year down in DC.

The shorthand might as well have been Chinese…

[MHM]

At any USEF show, and any show that follows USEF rules, it is against the rules for any exhibitor to approach a judge. The exhibitor must ask the steward or show manager for permission, and the steward would in turn ask the judge and arrange a time that would work.

Most judges have had this turn out to be an unpleasant experience at least once or twice, so they might choose not to take the chance.

A judge may be willing to give feedback on an exhibitor’s round. Most judges will NOT discuss anyone else’s round, or why so-and-so got a higher score, etc.

[Night_Flight]

Yeah, the scorecard is unlikely to be helpful to your friend thanks to all of the shorthand used. The same symbols aren’t necessarily used by every single judge, so there’s a good chance that she wouldn’t understand the notes anyway.

Does your friend have anyone videoing her so that she can see how the round looked vs how it felt?

[EqJumper]

At my local schooling shows, I always look at the judge’s card. They usually turn them into the office and I go there and take a look a while after my classes. Sometimes they are helpful - you can see where you chipped, comments about certain things (too slow at the sitting trot, for one), etc. But the other posters are correct - a lot of time they include shorthand that the average person can’t understand. They include the score so at least you know how each round was scored in general. I don’t know if I would even have the courage to ask to see the card at a big show, and I doubt they’d be so readily available.

[Belmont]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8048638]
I’ve seen the judges cards from some of the BigEq classes. I got to sit behind two well known judges one year down in DC.

The shorthand might as well have been Chinese…[/QUOTE]

THIS. I sat in a booth with John Charlebois one time… Holy short hand and symbols. Unless you had his dictionary or him right next to you, I doubt you would know what he meant.

[findeight]

Then there are little abbreviations sometimes most people would recognize judges mean for their eyes only. Like TUT or SBJ. Or a rough sketch of this:eek:. Seen them all.

[Lusoluv]

OK, thanks all. My friend approached the judge after the show. She was hoping to see low marks at certain places or comments so she could know what to work on. She certainly doesn’t think she’s perfect This was at an “A” show, but rather small. Largest class had 8-9 riders. Her mom filmed it from the rail, so lots of angles/views where you can’t see her leg or form clearly with fences, etc. getting in the way.

No problem. Her trainer had 5 other girls riding, so hard for her to hang on the rail and see every class. Just hoping she could get some hard info to help her improve. Thanks for all the feedback!

[fourfAlter]

[QUOTE=Lusoluv;8049427]
OK, thanks all. My friend approached the judge after the show. She was hoping to see low marks at certain places or comments so she could know what to work on. She certainly doesn’t think she’s perfect This was at an “A” show, but rather small. Largest class had 8-9 riders. Her mom filmed it from the rail, so lots of angles/views where you can’t see her leg or form clearly with fences, etc. getting in the way.

No problem. Her trainer had 5 other girls riding, so hard for her to hang on the rail and see every class. Just hoping she could get some hard info to help her improve. Thanks for all the feedback![/QUOTE]

2 problems:

1)No one should be approaching a judge directly,ever. They are not there to give you feedback, they are there to JUDGE you.
2) If a trainer doesn’t have time to watch their students round, how do they talk about what happened/improve upon it? Who is warming the girl up?

There would be no need to talk to the judge if the trainer was doing her job.

[findeight]

Friend needs a trainer to watch every class, that’s what trainers get paid for. Watching your show ride and providing feedback.

I hope friend got a substantial reduction in show training/coaching charges since she got left on her own in favor of other clients who trainer chose to coach. Seriously, trainers at that level at least provide an assistant to send you in and stand at the rail for feedback.

[Lusoluv]

Believe me findeight, you haven’t said anything that I haven’t already told her! In a perfect world…this wouldn’t be the case. Her trainer is a jumper trainer, but says she can teach Eq as well. It is what it is…

[gumshoe]

I think that if your friend is consistently placing 3-5 at all shows then the judges are pretty much in agreement. That’s where her trainer comes in.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=fourfAlter;8049467]
2 problems:

1)No one should be approaching a judge directly,ever. They are not there to give you feedback, they are there to JUDGE you.
2) If a trainer doesn’t have time to watch their students round, how do they talk about what happened/improve upon it? Who is warming the girl up?

There would be no need to talk to the judge if the trainer was doing her job.[/QUOTE]

Agreed on all points! I know it may sound cold, but the judge is not there to give a clinic. They are there to render an opinion and place each class accordingly! If a trainer is doing their job properly, then they would be the one to explain to their rider in regards to what needs to be done to improve upon their placings. Maybe they just don’t have the right horse. Maybe their leg is too weak. Maybe their upper body is too weak. Regardless, these questions need to be answered by the trainer. I understand when trainers are working multiple rings during a show…but you did mention the mom videotaped the daughters round. So then what needs to happen is to let the trainer watch the videotape and discuss.

As others have already pointed out, especially at an A show, competitors are prohibited from approaching the judge. The rider needs to go and speak to the Show Steward. The Show Steward will speak to the judge and then a decision is made whether the rider can speak to the judge. FYI the Show Steward is always present when a conversation is allowed between a competitor and judge. Approaching an official directly is a USEF violation.

GR1304.13: No one shall approach a judge with regard to a decision unless he first obtains permission from the Show Committee, steward or technical delegate who shall arrange an appointment with the judge at a proper time and place. No exhibitor has the right to inspect the judge’s cards without the judge’s permission.

And as others have also stated, simply looking at a judge’s score card may tell you very little about the round. Most officials use short hand or their own codes for remembering and scoring rounds. So unless the official is standing right there explaining the score card to you, it is likely that not much of it is going to make any sense.