Violent reaction with farrier

[Sdel]

Came to pick the COTH brain.

I have a middle aged gelding that I’ve had a rough time with since I bought him. The last two shoeing cycles he’s had an explosive reaction with the farrier, same trigger both times. He has exploded up and back after his front leg has been extended forward on the stand. Both times he’s been completely relaxed and falling asleep just moments before the farrier feels him tense up and explode. The first time the behavior was exhibited it was just the one leg and once and done. This time it was both front legs and he exploded 4-5 times and broke the cross ties before we could get him finished up with a modified procedure. The only other thing of notice was that at the very beginning he would start bringing his back feet up into a stance like an elephant on a ball….but then he’d come out of it and be fine.

Farrier and I both feel this is a pain response and not a simple spook or bad behavior.

He has changes on neck x-ray from about 2 years ago with enlargement at c 5-7. He got injections at that time. He has a history of known and suspected trauma to the shoulder/chest/base of the neck area. A couple of months ago he caught a front leg on a gate and ripped it off the hinges but he appeared sound, no swelling or indication of pain. He has a high/low wear pattern on a rear hoof that corresponds to the leg that has had ligament issues. He has been retired due to unpredictable violent bucking at the canter, both under saddle and liberty, but he hasn’t done that at liberty for a while.

I’ll get him into the vet sometime next week to repeat the neck X-rays and compare to the old ones. Also on the table is EPM/Lyme titers……

Anything else I should be considering or looking for? I don’t have a huge budget for him but I can do reasonable. I honestly think it is the neck/balance, and we may be at the end of the road of manageable.

[Montanas_Girl]

The most logical explanation is that his neck/neurological condition has progressed. Perhaps him hanging a leg in the gate exacerbated this problem.

Either way, do not crosstie this horse again. Especially for the farrier (I’d not tie him period, straight or cross, when his feet are being handled). He is not safe to be restrained in this way any longer. Regardless of the cause, once a horse learns to sit back, it is playing with fire to tie them again.

[Sdel]

He has been off and on the questionable list for a while. But he’s never had a cross tie problem until today. Honestly, his reaction crossed my line, by a lot.

[Simkie]

If he’s getting a big nervy zinger, it’s not really fair to say his reaction crossed the line. If that’s the case, he’s responding to something that hurts, a lot, and is scary to him. It’s not a choice he’s making. His response would be a reflection of what he’s experiencing

If you want to explore some options, I’d consider pre treating prior to farrier appts with a hefty nsaid dose and perhaps get him on gabapentin.

[Pezanos]

100% agree. My “neck” horse found extending his front legs intensely painful and would sit down/back up/do all sorts of so-called “naughty” things. Post treatment he no longer does this.

[Sdel]

He has been on gabapentin….it didn’t do much besides zone him out….equioxx doesn’t seem to do much either…

[NaturallyHappy]

I agree w @Simkie and @Pezanos 110%. Maybe try Tylenol or banamine. How else can he tell you he hurts???

[Sdel]

@NaturallyHappy

How else can he tell you he hurts???

I know he hurts….he has been for three years. Nothing seems to help him feel better, but he’s been otherwise happy to hang out and be more or less pleasant when handled. I’ve done gabapentin, Equioxx, lots of chiro, accupressure and bodywork, 24-7 turnout, injections.

This is the first time he’s seriously objected to basic care and handling.

[LCDR]

My farrier uses IV sedation to manage one of my horses. Her problem is pain in her hocks and we have tried a smorgasbord of oral and IM analgesics, variations of handling her back legs, and behavioral modification techniques. Heavy sedation has been the only successful and safe way to get her back hooves shod. Unfortunately her hooves are such that shoes are needed or we’d have gone the shoeless route.

[CHT]

Years ago I had a big gelding who broke his neck. As he aged his symptoms got worse and he became less predictable, including becoming aggressive with other horses. it was a hard decision because overall he LOOKED ok, but putting him down was the right answer for me, and after the decision was made I realized it was the right one. Explosive behaviour around people (or other horses) when it is something that is just going to get worse? It took me a while to realize it just wasn’t fair to him or the people (and horses) I expected to work around him. Something to consider if you don’t get a clear resolution.

[OverandOnward]

It sounds like you are on the right track. That said, I don’t know if there will be a ‘good’ solution to the problem.

When horses react explosively, they are, of course, reacting. Not initiating. As you acknowledge, this is probably physical and pain in nature.

The problem is the same with a high-prey-drive dog – there is no thought, no decision, by the animal. No instant between stimulous and reaction for a training thought to intervene.

The one solution and approach available to human carers is to control the situation where this occurs, to hopefully reduce the risk. Control the triggers. The physical environment, tools, techniques, the psychological stimulous, etc.

But if it isn’t possible to control the triggers, that’s a different dimension of problem.

Then - just IMO - it’s about safety considerations going forward. It’s not just what the horse can do. It’s what the humans can do. And what they can’t do. The limits of safety assurance.

This is such a tough sort of situation for any of us to be in. It’s hard to know if we’ve found every idea, every possible solution. If there is some new inspiration out there we just haven’t found yet.

Or – if we’ve exhausted the possibilities. And then it is back to what we can do, and what are the safety consequences for both the animal and the humans.

Good luck on this. It sounds like you and the farrier found a solution for the last round. And you are located near a great spinal vet practice, so there’s that resource for some input.

[Willesdon]

What did the farrier say? Will the farrier ever work with this horse again? How does the unpredictable behavior of the horse affect its future management? Personally, I believe human safety is paramount.

[Sdel]

The farrier said the whole thing was “weird” and he hadn’t quite seen anything like it. His concern is how there was zero warning other than a slight tension. Horse went from relaxed with a zoned out bliss look on his face to full panic to normal with licking and chewing in a manner of seconds. He thinks there is a serious risk of a person getting hurt if they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is not the first time this horse has been 0-60 explosive and he’s caught other professionals off guard with it too. Otherwise, farrier hasn’t completely written him off yet. We can try a few things, but I’m not sure sedating him is a viable option considering he has situations where he has had questionable balance. He’s been a bit of a head scratcher for everyone honestly.

[2DogsFarm]

[quote=“Sdel, post:13, topic:805547”] I’m not sure sedating him is a viable option
[/quote]

Does your shoer have stocks?
I’m not 100% saying this is The solution. But it would keep him upright.
Agree it sure sounds like a nerve pain reaction.
Poor guy, I hope you can find a way to get him trimmed, if not shod.
FWIW:
I Evented my TB barefoot - showed BNH, but schooled to Training.

[MsM]

Perhaps try taking him barefoot and NOT stretching the leg forward at all.

[cayuse]

I have a medium pony like this. He pulls back and sits. My vet has me give him banamine the day before and then again 2 hours before farrier appointment. She also said she’s had luck with Trazadone in conjunction with the banamine for horses like this. We are unable to get nail on shoes on pony so he get’s trimmed with his foot really low and not pulled forward. If the farrier needs his foot propped up he uses a small block about 10 inches high instead of the stand. Farrier is able to get glue-on shoes applied this way too. He has been gone over by the vet, she thinks its a combination of an arthritic knee and “memory” of a bad experience at one point.

[Pepsy]

Please consider not cross tying. If a person is holding lead rope, horse can change head and neck position and hopefully stay more comfortable. Even soft tying with a single lead rope is a better option. Good Luck

[libgrrl]

I was just going to say this. I have one that has suddenly become uncomfortable (we are trying to discern why) and I always hold her. I can adjust easily if necessary.

[Calvincrowe]

Lots of advice here and you are obviously going to get to the bottom of it if you can. I’ve boarded aged horses for a long time and the odd positions we ask horses to stand in for extended periods of time to shoe or trim can be very painful and panic inducing for older, injured or painful horses. I’ve had them absolutely freak out, fall over, and fight the farrier’s positioning. A good farrier will work with you.

Having the farrier modify his usual procedures may be a good option. Also, do not cross tie, but instead hold the horse on a lead. That way you can be eyes on and monitoring for subtle changes up close. All of my aged horses are held by the lead during trimming.

Pain meds can help, but nerve pain is often not well relieved by them. It’s obvious the position is triggering a sharp, unexpected pain for your horse. So try not to replicate that position again. Talk with vet and farrier about options for pain relief, different style of trimming/rasping/etc. Good luck, trial and error can be your friend or foe.

[Pepsy]

Another thought. It seems horse reacted when front leg was stretched forward? Stretching leg forward, along with additional leg stretches, being implemented as a routine for this horse really might help. I do a lot of stretching with my horses and stretching leg forward is one stretch I never do cross tied as horse should be able to stretch neck forward while performing this.