All or nothing, eh?
That would be indeed sad, because IME the two things are not even REMOTELY the same, other than that there are dogs involved.
[QUOTE=EqTrainer;2937379]
All or nothing, eh?
That would be indeed sad, because IME the two things are not even REMOTELY the same, other than that there are dogs involved.[/QUOTE]
Sometimes that’s the mentality of the anti’s
I have been following this thread on this bulletin board and others for several weeks. I have so far learned that there are valid opinions on both sides of the aisle. I have learned that some bulletin boards, such as cabbala’s, does not want it discussed and the thread gets shut down. I see some hunters with good points and a lot of discussion on speeddogs, masterfox, foxdawgs, etc.
I also see that if Bob and Derrick are left alone in a room together, someone will come out looking like Michael Vick’s Pit Bulls.
I am not a VA resident, so my opinion does not count. Here in New England, deer hunting with any dog is illegal. However I do take my hounds out hunting all the time. I do a few things differently. I try and stay out of the woods durring rifle seasons. I approach the landowner(s) and get prior permission. I have reasonable control over my hounds. In the rare event they do not come back to the truck with me, I immediately go looking. Tracking collars are a essential tool. If I get a signal of a hound on land that I do not know, I seek out the landowner to ask permission. Most landowners are fascinated by radio telemetry and a strange guy standing out on the road with a tri fold antenna precipitates many questions. It is a great ice breaker to start the conservation of “I lost my hound.” I also go back and tell the landowner that I lost my hound. Admitting to my failure to control my hound keeps the landowner informed, keeps me humble and the landowner is always happy to keep an eye out.
I keep business cards in my wallet with my name and contact info. Not hard to do, go to Staples / OfficeMax and by the paper to print pages of business cards. Look professional, be respective of the landowner, be courteous.
I know one of the new bills in the VA general assembly, is suggesting to maintain the RTR law but leave firearms in vehicles. I cannot think of an instance where I went looking for a hound when I needed a firearm with me. Leaving a gun back in your vehicle certainly removes any suspicion as to what you are doing. – is this bill such a horrible compromise??
On another note, I see posts all the time by hunters who have lost their hounds while hunting. I have to wonder if some of the landowner complaints about hounds running loose are not unjustified. I go out with dozens of hounds and at the end of the day I go home with dozens of hounds. It baffles me how one guy can go out with three hounds and loose two. Seriously, have you ever heard of control? So much about hunting is public relations. Unless you own a small island or tens of thousands of acres, you MUST work with the landowners and keep up positive relations. It is not good for the sport to have hounds running all over the countryside as it leads to negative publicity. Things can get out of hand and yes, hounds take off. But there seems to be an awful lot of lost hounds in VA.
Like I said earlier, I don’t live in VA. My opinion does not count. I just hate to see hunters loose a long held tradition. But if hunters don’t work with the landowners that tradition will end. Perhaps the PR damage is already done.
Greg
Greg - I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. You may not be aware of the actual law on the exception to trespass in Virginia.
First, the exception does not permit any firearm or weapon to be carried onto the owner’s land. That is current law and has been for many years.
Second, if the hunter encounters a landowner, they must identify themselves. Unfortunately in this day and age, it seems we must legislate good manners. But I digress.
Third, we have had a problem in Virginia with people stealing hounds and removing their tracking collars. One poster stated that this was done by other hunters (as you know hunting dogs are often extremely valuable), but I do know that the law was prompted in part by problems hunters were having with PETA - their employees were caught stealing a hunting dog and tossing its collar out the window onto the side of the road. As far as I know - only that particular dog was recovered. The many many others were never found (though their collars were found in lakes or on the side of the highway; I suspect most, if not all, the hounds met with the needle in the back of the PETA van. I think those employees were supposed to be on trial; but I don’t know. Probably plead down or something.
I digress again. Sorry.
99.9% of the time a hunter can just knock on the door and say geez - my dog is loose somewhere on your land - I’m so sorry - do you mind if I go back there and look for him? And 99.9% of the time the owner will not only give permission, but offer to help, loan the guy or gal a flashlight or coat, or like I do - find the dog and shut him up in a stall and call the owner.
Or the hunter may be distressed to find that Old Blue just hasn’t grasped reading yet and has crossed onto posted land. So the hunter secures his weapon and goes to get Old Blue back, making sure gates are properly secured and that no animals are disturbed.
No harm, no foul.
The concept of trespass isn’t an absolute. There are types of trespass, and there are exceptions to trespass. This is one exception (the right to retrieve) that balances the rights of the landowner against the right and responsibility of a hunter to collect and safeguard his dog. I admit it can be a rather delicate balancing act - but this exception has worked well for everyone. But it does require each party to be a bit flexible. The hunter cannot abuse this right, and the landowner has every right to expect that the hunter will treat the land and the landowner with respect.
And generally, that’s exactly what happens. What we have been struggling to resolve is how to word the statute or regulation so that the unethical and irresponsible among us (shame on you) stop abusing this exception.
People seem to think foxhunting is excepted somehow, or that foxhounds don’t trespass. They most certainly can. And hunts go to extraordinary lengths to prevent it from happening.
But until dogs learn to read the risk of crossing onto forbidden territory remains. So we still need to be sure we can go get the hound without being arrested and thrown in jail.
I’m never upset when I see an errant hound, and I’m also never upset when I see loose livestock. To me, it’s just part of living in the country. We just all try to be good neighbors and look out for each other.
Hunters who throw each other under the bus hoping to distract from their particular sport are really doing a disservice to the sporting community. If you read some of these posts - it becomes evident that there are a lot of newcomers to rural areas that really don’t understand hunting in general; much less hunting with dogs. So it’s quite understandable that to such a person, every hound puttering about is some sort of threat or evidence of irresponsibility.
I don’t have a problem with the study in principle - I was among the more vociferous citizens in asking that this be removed from the GA and punted back to DGIF where it belonged. (the abuse of RTR). I saw it purely as a regulatory matter well within their jurisdiction. Seems DGIF punted it back, got enough grant money to fund office workers in Richmond (instead of game wardens who could actually be on the ground arresting people), and then, in concert with Tech, invited HSUS and PETA for God knows what reason.
It’s kind of like inviting drug dealers to a NA meeting. At least to me it is.
Did I ever tell you what the biggest complaint is? (to our state wildlife biologists). The biggest complaints are from urbanites who have moved into formerly rural areas. The complaints concern squirrels eating all the bird seed, deer eating their flowers and the noise the crickets and birds make. I mean - some really off the wall complaints. One story that was related to me was about a guy who screamed at the biologist because he had just spent over a million dollars building a custom home and the damn crickets were keeping him up at night and he better by God [I]DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. (disclaimer: I don’t remember all the details of this guy’s story so my retelling isn’t perfect)
[/I]I appreciate that the guy might have trouble getting to sleep at night… but can such a complaint really be considered legitimate?
On the other hand - the gene pool certainly could use a little chlorine. Some folks in this state that have no business hunting, having dogs, or even kids for that matter.
I can’t do much about that except say - why are we spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a study, getting grant money for office workers in Richmond, when all that money could be better spent on hiring and training our game wardens? After all, the game warden is the one that can help foster and develop relationships among landowners and hunters, can help resolve disputes, and most certainly are the one who are called to apprehend wrongdoers.
I don’t know about you - but where I live in Virginia- I’d much rather have another game warden. When I want to report something - a local warden is going to be of much greater help to me than a desk jockey in Richmond.
Finally, while we may “seem” to have a lot of lost hounds, I have to point out that we do an awful lot of hunting with dogs, at night too. And the “lost hound” stories are rarely supported by any evidence. To an awful lot of people, any dog not on a leash is “lost”. The shelter numbers don’t really support the anecdotes. Hounds that are picked up are the ones most likely to be returned to their owners - if you look at the breeds… it’s not hounds that comprise the majority population in Virginia shelters.
But I’m going off on a tangent again. Sorry.
Another tangent… the trespass issue does seem to vary regionally. In some areas, oyster beds are the big issue. Or timber. Trespassing, in general, is a real problem in rural areas. By that I mean criminal trespass as well as civil. This teeny exception (RTR) is by no means causing our farmers a smidgen of trouble compared to folks who just go out and rob oyster beds and steal timber, go trail riding (you know who you are and there are a LOT of you), start fires, go off-roading… the list goes one.
And in each case a game warden could have been of some assistance; if only to have a law enforcement officer to respond to an initial complaint while other officers are summoned to the scene.
Jessica,
I really appreciate you taking the time to write a very lengthy response. I have read and reread it.
I understand your stories about urbanites not understanding country life. I have heard them too. Some of them are just fantastic; absolutely priceless! Then again I would probably be lost on 34th and West myself, forever trying to get out of the concrete jungle and never being able to understand that unique dialect of a taxi driver.
Then the general issue at hand, appears to be a regulatory one where there are simply not enough Game Wardens to enforce the current laws and foster goodwill. From what I gather it is not so much about hunters taking their dogs to places where that are not allowed to hunt, but more an exercise in educating the ‘new’ landowners to VA. So where is the breakdown? Is it a few bad hunters spoiling the sport? When confronted by an un-welcoming landowner who says “no you cannot hunt here” and the hunter responds, “RTR” because he can, yet his true intention is to deceptively hunt.
Or have just enough complaints been logged by DGIF from a variety of sources, no doubt phone-banks at PETA and HSUS, that the General Assembly now feels pressured and compelled to do something.
Looking at this through my narrow little window, it appeared to be hunters totally running amuck. Or perhaps that is the view I have read from the media. The infighting between the various groups who
support hunting doesn’t seem to make a unifying approach to solving the issue at hand.
Keep going off on tangents, you are educating me. You teach me how better to understand this and I’ll try and help to get Peanut working hard for you!
I am getting a clearer picture, thank you.
Well - there’s nothing quite as hysterical as a frumpy, rapidly greying woman in Carrhartts wandering around the DC metro area looking for a place to park her dually - as frantic commuters scatter; leaving a trail of Starbucks and Blackberry’s in their wake.
I tried city life. Nice place to visit; wouldn’t want to live there. But I realize I’m missing out on a lot of great things by being a hermit. So I hope I’m not sounding as if urban dwellers are the Devil’s spawn. If so - that wasn’t my intent and I apologize.
As with any issue, there are layers. What I read (and I read an awful lot of this stuff) is that there are a heck of a lot of folks that don’t have a basic understanding of the law and regulations as they are NOW. That’s ok - not everyone can be perfect like me. 
In order to understand why a hunter might have to retrieve his dog, it’s helpful to understand the basics of what types of hunting exist.
The coon hunter is different than the squirrel hunter.
The English style foxhunter is different than the night hunter.
The frumpy lady with the beagle is different than a deer hunter.
Each “type” has its own territory requirements, methods, optimum time to hunt, they attract different personality types, and also require different types of dogs. Kind of anyway (you’ll know more about hound breeding than I ever will, I’m sure. But at least with the foxhounds - the “difference” between the foxhound and the Walker is… well… not so different).
Landowners (and I am a landowner too), may not distinguish. The damn dogs treed a coon on his land and dagnabbit - it’s annoying.
Well -ok - yes - seems the raccoon can’t read either. So at least let the hunter remove his dogs from the land.
I think I’m lurking on the some of the same sites you visit… and honest to God - there is a heck of a lot of misinformation. If you have specific questions about Virginia law or hunting regs - I’d be happy to direct you to the appropriate information.
I really do think we all need to band together - and I also think by banding together we can hopefully drive more of the bad guys out of our midst.
There is nothing I’d rather do than spend time with my dogs (and horses). I would very much hate for a few bad apples to result in a ban on hunting with dogs. And I’d certainly be sad if other hunters were complicit in a ban. I’ve been very supportive of hunting in general, as has my family (many of whom hunt with dogs - and many others who are still hunters). It is very possible to hunt with dogs and not abuse the hospitality and rights of landowners. And in fact, the vast majority of hunting is done within those reasonable parameters.
You have the right idea. The crux of the problem is in fact the abuse of the right to retrieve exception to trespass. And that is what sportsmen are trying to resolve - to protect the lawful hunter while giving law enforcement the tools they need to apprehend the abuser.
Now - how to word that… well… that’s what we’re all trying to iron out.
This is definitely going to make for some interesting conversation this weekend.
When hunting dogs are poached to ‘save’ them
By Cortney Langley | The Virginia Gazette
January 16, 2008
JAMES CITY
After dark one fall night, Russell Carlton’s phone rang.
“We have your dog,” a woman told him. She was with the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. In Charlottesville.
Carlton, who’s vice president of Oak Tree Hunt Club in rural James City, had been hunting in a 5,000-acre tract off Croaker Road, mostly swampland, when his dog got loose and ran onto Interstate 64. A traveler picked it up and decided to drop it off at the pound in her own town.
She told the SPCA there that she had tried to call the home and cell numbers listed on the dog’s collar, but nobody picked up. Carlton drove the 120 miles to get his dog back. The SPCA waived the fees, recognizing his four-hour round-trip as burden enough.
Carlton, something of a skeptic, believes the woman recognized his hound as a hunting dog and decided it would be better off adopted out than hunting another day.
Deer hunting season closed last week, ending hunters’ favorite time of year and one of the busiest times of year for James City County Animal Control and the Heritage Humane Society.
“They affect many people,” said Shirley Anderson, supervisor of Animal Control.
Anderson and her staff are often the de facto mediators between suburbanites and hunters. Property owners and hunting opponents call her agency to round up dogs on their property, or roaming the streets or the wood line.
Anderson and the staff know most of the hunt clubs in the area, and often quickly reunite the dogs with their owners. They aren’t always able to reach the hunters, though, and if the dog is in leash law territory, officers transport the dog to the Humane Society.
Beyond the stray dog issue, though, is often an ideological fight. Many people believe that to “work” the dogs in any manner is cruel and inhumane. They point to how lean the dogs become over the winter as proof of maltreatment. They claim that dogs that won’t hunt well are simply set loose at the end of the season, into the wild.
Increased suburbanization doesn’t help, according to the Virginia Department of Game & Inland Fisheries. As more and more traditional hunting land is given over to housing developments, newcomers often bring city sensibilities that conflict with rural Southern tradition.
“The first time they see an orange hat, they say, ‘Hey! People are trying to shoot deer in my front yard!’” said Holiday Hunt Club secretary Tommy Louke.
“In some of the newer neighborhoods, like Colonial Heritage and Stonehouse, those lands have been hunted for years,” Anderson agreed. “And the dogs don’t know the difference. The dogs have been hunting this land for a long time.”
Veterinarian staff have mixed feelings. When hunting dogs are hurt and taken in, some go unclaimed by hunters who don’t want to incur the bill, giving rise to a view of them as callous and irresponsible. Shelter workers are sometimes reluctant to return dogs to owners they suspect are neglectful.
“They spoil it for the good hunters who take care of their animals,” Anderson said.
Hunters rue the few bad apples. A decent hunting dog can cost anywhere from $250 to $1,000, according to Game & Inland. Then there are shots, food and shelter. Douglas Carlton, Russell’s son, goes through four tons of dog food in a year. Hunters also rent time at fox pens to exercise the dogs and get them ready for the season. A tracking system runs about $1,000, and more than $100 per individual collar.
All told, a litter of pups will cost more than $1,500 before any of them go hunting, Douglas said.
With real money on the line, hunters argue that they are the last people wanting their investments running loose in the suburbs or wandering along the interstate. Most of these owners go home at night with their dogs fully accounted for.
Newcomers, they say, don’t understand either the culture or the function of hunting.
“A dog in what I call good running shape, they think is poor,” said Jerry Nixon, who owns about three dozen hunting dogs.
Like Carlton, many have had run-ins with shelters, who often charge the hunters to re-claim their dogs or, with no photo identification, have them adopt their own dogs. James City County charges $35 for the first night and $15 each day, charges that go to defray the cost of feeding and sheltering the animals.
Three years ago one of Nixon’s puppies was picked up and dropped off at the shelter. The staff dewormed and bathed the dog, even put a little pink collar on her. When he went to collect her, he couldn’t prove she was his without photo identification.
“That put a bad taste in my mouth,” he said. “I don’t mind paying one or two nights, but to have to adopt my own dog back…” Nixon has since moved his dogs out of James City County.
The Humane Society argues that a photo is an easy and reasonable way to verify identity. They cite cases where warring couples will steal and drop family pets off at the shelter rather than let the partner gain custody.
It isn’t until after the 12th day that the animals legally pass into the Humane Society’s possession. State law alternately recognizes property owners’ right to their animals while trying to prevent cruelty. Although not inherently incompatible, which law trumps becomes fuzzy when some people classify hunting with dogs as cruel on its own.
“We’re the ones walking that line,” said Christie Peters, executive director of the Heritage Humane Society. “And it’s an interesting role that legislators may need to look at. It’s a tricky situation.”
The conflict can ultimately erupt in threats of violence or intrusion, putting the dogs and Animal Control in the middle.
Anderson said that a few years back, angry homeowners removed tracking collars from a number of hunting dogs and set them loose to punish the hunters, an act that was outlawed last year.
The rift between hunters and non-hunters has attracted the eye of the state. Game & Inland contracted Virginia Tech to study the issue of hunting with dogs after a forum on its website drew hundreds of comments in a few short weeks this summer.
That study is in its early stages. The agency will be soliciting public input during the spring and summer. More than 50 members of Holiday Hunt Club plan to submit letters in support of dog hunting.
“If it came down to not hunting with dogs or not hunting, I’d give up hunting,” Louke said.
Copyright © 2008, The Virginia Gazette
I really apologize for blathering on about this - but I just reread my post and realized that I should qualify my statement a bit.
My understanding, and this was before the study was officially announced, was that this was the DGIF’s method of solving the ABUSE of the RTR. That’s it. I don’t believe I misunderstood the intention, and if a citizen reviews the DGIF information on this matter, it does seem that certain abuses and criminal activity are the focus of the study.
Others may have more information or have a different understanding of what this study has become. It was my understanding that “banning” hunting with hounds was not on the table.
Who knows. 
Hokieman - that happens with lost pets, too. My neighbor lost her dog that way - the person who found the dog (who accidentally got out of the house) wouldn’t take it to the local shelter because it was a “kill-shelter”, so she took the dog over 100 miles away and dropped it off at a kennel owned by a friend. They contacted my friend but refused to return the dog to her - because she was obviously a neglectful owner.
These were not ACO’s. The dog simply accidentally slipped out and my friend was never able to find out enough information to retrieve her dog.
[QUOTE=J Swan;2942161]
Hokieman - that happens with lost pets, too. My neighbor lost her dog that way - the person who found the dog (who accidentally got out of the house) wouldn’t take it to the local shelter because it was a “kill-shelter”, so she took the dog over 100 miles away and dropped it off at a kennel owned by a friend. They contacted my friend but refused to return the dog to her - because she was obviously a neglectful owner.
These were not ACO’s. The dog simply accidentally slipped out and my friend was never able to find out enough information to retrieve her dog.[/QUOTE]
We have a good amount of hunting dogs and fox hounds ending up at the rescue groups I work with around here. Some find good homes and others just languish because nobody finds them suitable. 
Yeah - not at lot of people know how to handle a hound. They are my favorite type of dog - the rescue I work with knows to send any hound types to me (not necessarily hunting dogs - but any breed of hound that does not have a home). I’m taking a break from fostering right now though.
We just took one back because the owners kept letting him off leash. He wound up in the shelter 3 times (the dogs we adopt out have our number on their tags). Anyway - we took the dog back because the owners continually violated the adoption agreement. Guess they figured the hound wouldn’t take off? What hound wouldn’t follow it nose???
Not the type of dog for everyone, that’s for sure. A lot of them make very good housepets - but of all the hounds I’ve owned - only one was truly content as a suburban type house dog. It all depends on the dog, I guess.
Off topic but I awoke to find we have over 5 inch of snow and still coming.:winkgrin: I am happy.
Derick Ratcliffe (Hokieman) is a board member of the VHDA. He pushing on this and about 40 other different forums. He’s trying to drum up support for their so called “tradition”. Remember slavery at one point in time was tradition too. The state due to the excessive number of complaints has been forced to step in an effort to resolve the problems created by the dog hunters or dog chasers as many call them.
The VHDA is using the survey process as a ruse to drum up support by saying it’s an anti-hunting movement and the board isn’t pro-hunting or doing their job correctly. The survey is only being done to fix the problem the dog chasers continually create. Because of the fear that the state is finally stepping up and will probably make changes to their so called sport they want the VDGIF board changed to people that support their cause. Remember this board is the same board that gave them the rights they have, which they abused. Read below to see what they do with these rights.
In VA in the eastern half hunting deer with dogs is legal. The dogs are let loose and hunters surround the tract and shoot the deer when they try to escape. Hardly fair chase but it’s legal here. The state in it’s infinite wisdom also allow a hunter to go onto another’s land without permission, even if it’s posted, to retrieve their dogs - day or night. This is part of the problem. With land being divided up and large tracts being split the chase is going onto other non-dog hunters land. Their hunts are being disrupted by legal trespassers as well as the dogs themselves. Since a pack of dogs on a deer doesn’t stop at the “No Tresspassing” sign the chase can go on for miles or hours or even all day. Imagine you’re on your own land and still hunting and a pack of dogs chase a deer round and round for your morning or evening hunt. Imagine a person or group of people come onto your land and walk the woods disrupting your hunt wile they follow or claim to be looking for dogs. Imagine this happens every weekend and almost every other day on your own land. Then imagine all this is legal and you can’t do a thing to stop it. Another favorite tactic is to send a group in “looking for dogs” in a man drive to chase deer off your land. Now if you live somewhere else and only lease or are not there 24/7 they’ll come in and hunt your land for you. Using the dogs they can hunt another’s land very easily and in a quick time will have run the deer out for them to shoot.
Other tactics they use. Say you own a piece of land and the dog chasers have rights to hunt adjoining land. Say you spent $$ and time to create food plots and only still hunt or do QDM. They go to the far side of your land and drop off packs of dogs to run across your land to the waiting hunters on their side. They just hunted your land without permission. And there is nothing you can do about it as it’s 100% legal.
More issues. The law states that you cannot train on deer out of season. But you can train on foxes all year. No problem you just let your deer dogs train anytime you want and if the game warden comes you tell him they’re chasing foxes. They’re chasing deer but the law can’t successfully prosecute the offender because it’s based on what the owner says the dog is chasing, not what the dog is actually chasing. I’ve got e-mails from a warden stating that they are powerless to stop this activity unless the law is changed. One only complains one time to find out that it’s pointless and impossible to stop. Since one realizes this after the first complaint the number of actual instances this happens is tremendous but the complaint numbers are low due to the fact you know it’s a waste of time. I called and the game warden wouldn’t even respond and said he can’t get a conviction so he wouldn’t come investigate. They kow but can’t stop it due the the way the law is written. VHDA is trying to use the numbers to justify that there isn’t that many complaints. It’s only low because people know there is no point of calling. I had every Saturday of my archery season disrupted by another’s dogs running on the land I paid to hunt. I can tell you it’s hard to hit running deer with a bow. It can be very frustrating to say the least to have this happen week after week. They also train in the spring during spring gobler as well.
Then there is the actual abuse to the dogs. I’ve personally seen a president of a dog club shoot a dog and kill it because it didn’t run deer good enough. There are no limits to the time a dog can run free. Many are lost, injured and never return. They’re run to death, given and overnight break and run hard the next day. This goes on for 8 weeks of dog chasing season. Some clubs steal others clubs dogs and run them till the season ends and then let them go fend for themselves. They have to mark the dogs with hair dye or bleach to try to stop this from happening. The dogs are a tool and when the tool breaks they get rid of it and get another. Dogs are cheap or free so why vet one when you can easily pick up more?
Also you can imagine the wound rate on shooting at deer being chased by dogs with buckshot. Rifles aren’t a legal weapon for deer in many of the dog chasing counties so they use buckshot only. They’ll claim it isn’t so but scouting after dog season one finds enough dead deer to know different.
Hokieman and the others will tell you that yes these things happen but it’s only a few or rogue hunters. That’s not correct. I’m a lifelong resident of VA and have close to 40 years hunting in dog country. It’s not so. I’ve been in 8 dog clubs and only 1 of those 8 didn’t train out of season or break other game laws on a regular basis. It’s very hard to find land to hunt and you almost have to be a member of a dog club to find land so I join and hunt the non-dog season and go other places during dog chasing season.
The state is finally looking at dog hunting for what it is and the dog chasers who have had had their way so long are scared. They’re doing anything they can including attacking the very organization that gave them unlimited freedom to run wild 8 weeks a year. They’re now mad at VDGIF but should be mad at themselves instead for abusing the rules as well as their less than sportsman like conduct. They’re a black eye to all VA hunters and their ways need to be fixed. They’re the most visible form of hunting and certainly are the least capable of representing hunting’s image or what we want the public to view as deer hunting.
Now hokieman can come on and tell you all this isn’t so with his page after page of cut and paste articles by other dog chasers on how wonderful all this really is. If you buy that I’ve got some land you might like too.
[QUOTE=No-Dogs-4-DEER-2009;2944304]
Derick Ratcliffe (Hokieman) is a board member of the VHDA. He pushing on this and about 40 other different forums. He’s trying to drum up support for their so called “tradition”. Remember slavery at one point in time was tradition too. The state due to the excessive number of complaints has been forced to step in an effort to resolve the problems created by the dog hunters or dog chasers as many call them.
The VHDA is using the survey process as a ruse to drum up support by saying it’s an anti-hunting movement and the board isn’t pro-hunting or doing their job correctly. The survey is only being done to fix the problem the dog chasers continually create. Because of the fear that the state is finally stepping up and will probably make changes to their so called sport they want the VDGIF board changed to people that support their cause. Remember this board is the same board that gave them the rights they have, which they abused. Read below to see what they do with these rights.
In VA in the eastern half hunting deer with dogs is legal. The dogs are let loose and hunters surround the tract and shoot the deer when they try to escape. Hardly fair chase but it’s legal here. The state in it’s infinite wisdom also allow a hunter to go onto another’s land without permission, even if it’s posted, to retrieve their dogs - day or night. This is part of the problem. With land being divided up and large tracts being split the chase is going onto other non-dog hunters land. Their hunts are being disrupted by legal trespassers as well as the dogs themselves. Since a pack of dogs on a deer doesn’t stop at the “No Tresspassing” sign the chase can go on for miles or hours or even all day. Imagine you’re on your own land and still hunting and a pack of dogs chase a deer round and round for your morning or evening hunt. Imagine a person or group of people come onto your land and walk the woods disrupting your hunt wile they follow or claim to be looking for dogs. Imagine this happens every weekend and almost every other day on your own land. Then imagine all this is legal and you can’t do a thing to stop it. Another favorite tactic is to send a group in “looking for dogs” in a man drive to chase deer off your land. Now if you live somewhere else and only lease or are not there 24/7 they’ll come in and hunt your land for you. Using the dogs they can hunt another’s land very easily and in a quick time will have run the deer out for them to shoot.
Other tactics they use. Say you own a piece of land and the dog chasers have rights to hunt adjoining land. Say you spent $$ and time to create food plots and only still hunt or do QDM. They go to the far side of your land and drop off packs of dogs to run across your land to the waiting hunters on their side. They just hunted your land without permission. And there is nothing you can do about it as it’s 100% legal.
More issues. The law states that you cannot train on deer out of season. But you can train on foxes all year. No problem you just let your deer dogs train anytime you want and if the game warden comes you tell him they’re chasing foxes. They’re chasing deer but the law can’t successfully prosecute the offender because it’s based on what the owner says the dog is chasing, not what the dog is actually chasing. I’ve got e-mails from a warden stating that they are powerless to stop this activity unless the law is changed. One only complains one time to find out that it’s pointless and impossible to stop. Since one realizes this after the first complaint the number of actual instances this happens is tremendous but the complaint numbers are low due to the fact you know it’s a waste of time. I called and the game warden wouldn’t even respond and said he can’t get a conviction so he wouldn’t come investigate. They kow but can’t stop it due the the way the law is written. VHDA is trying to use the numbers to justify that there isn’t that many complaints. It’s only low because people know there is no point of calling. I had every Saturday of my archery season disrupted by another’s dogs running on the land I paid to hunt. I can tell you it’s hard to hit running deer with a bow. It can be very frustrating to say the least to have this happen week after week. They also train in the spring during spring gobler as well.
Then there is the actual abuse to the dogs. I’ve personally seen a president of a dog club shoot a dog and kill it because it didn’t run deer good enough. There are no limits to the time a dog can run free. Many are lost, injured and never return. They’re run to death, given and overnight break and run hard the next day. This goes on for 8 weeks of dog chasing season. Some clubs steal others clubs dogs and run them till the season ends and then let them go fend for themselves. They have to mark the dogs with hair dye or bleach to try to stop this from happening. The dogs are a tool and when the tool breaks they get rid of it and get another. Dogs are cheap or free so why vet one when you can easily pick up more?
Also you can imagine the wound rate on shooting at deer being chased by dogs with buckshot. Rifles aren’t a legal weapon for deer in many of the dog chasing counties so they use buckshot only. They’ll claim it isn’t so but scouting after dog season one finds enough dead deer to know different.
Hokieman and the others will tell you that yes these things happen but it’s only a few or rogue hunters. That’s not correct. I’m a lifelong resident of VA and have close to 40 years hunting in dog country. It’s not so. I’ve been in 8 dog clubs and only 1 of those 8 didn’t train out of season or break other game laws on a regular basis. It’s very hard to find land to hunt and you almost have to be a member of a dog club to find land so I join and hunt the non-dog season and go other places during dog chasing season.
The state is finally looking at dog hunting for what it is and the dog chasers who have had had their way so long are scared. They’re doing anything they can including attacking the very organization that gave them unlimited freedom to run wild 8 weeks a year. They’re now mad at VDGIF but should be mad at themselves instead for abusing the rules as well as their less than sportsman like conduct. They’re a black eye to all VA hunters and their ways need to be fixed. They’re the most visible form of hunting and certainly are the least capable of representing hunting’s image or what we want the public to view as deer hunting.
Now hokieman can come on and tell you all this isn’t so with his page after page of cut and paste articles by other dog chasers on how wonderful all this really is. If you buy that I’ve got some land you might like too.[/QUOTE]
This person is anti dog hunting. He like his fellow friends wants to ban all hunting dogs. He is upset that I am posting on many forums to get the word out and came across his band of anti dog group. He has made a comment he will find everywhere I am at and post his ilk. you found me congratulations but tread lightly here.
Here’s what happens when Bubba feels threatened.
PASQUOTANK COUNTY
The Sheriff’s Office is pursuing persons of interest after about 1,000 nails were dumped in several driveways last weekend.
Residents at about 12 homes awoke Saturday to find about 75 to 100 nails dumped in each of their driveways, said Brent McKecuen, an investigator with the Pasquotank County Sheriff’s Office. The people targeted included a county commissioner, several law enforcement officers and a local attorney.
McKecuen said no arrests had been made, but investigators are pursuing information and suspect the nail drops could be linked to a recent county commissioners’ meeting.
The topic of the meeting was the use of hunting dogs,
McKecuen said, and some of the people targeted had spoken against it.
Hunters use their dogs to chase deer during the hunting season, he said. Residents and others who spoke against the practice don’t want the dogs and deer running across their property.
The debate included about a dozen speakers and took more than an hour, according to the clerk of the Board of Commissioners.
Investigators don’t have anything to substantiate the hunting dog theory right now,
McKecuen said, and no suspects have been named.
Staff writer Lauren King contributed to this story.
It’s not just VA that’s had enough of the dog chasers. I do mean deer dog hunters. No one has issues with other uses of dogs for hunting just the deer doggers. They’re consistently the ones giving hunters the black eye.
I live in an Madison where using beagles for hunting deer is both legal and quite wide-spread. I have always found these hunters to be very considerate of my requirements when coming across my land.
Deer hunting with beagles has been a tradition here long before I got here. As a newbie in the area, I have learned to enjoy the beagles coming by in full cry after their quarry. I’ve heard from other people that their horses get all excited and that may be. My foxhunter will actually follow the beagles through the field as will the other two horses. When the beagles are on the farm next to us, all three horses will trot to the fence line and just watch. Its quite a site.
As a fox hunter, I have to cross many people’s land in order to pursue my passion. It would be hypocritical of me to ban people from doing the same. Just like I try to be while fox hunting, I only ask that other hunters be respectful of my land and my wishes.
I find that people that want to ban things are just working their way the list of things that they want to ban. If they get deer hunting with dogs banned, you can be absolutely positive that fox hunting will soon be in their sights.
Agreed, Elghund
Antis, Banners, all the same. An agenda of elimination and a distain for rural people.
Note: I have not read the entire thread, but feel strongly about the following opinion.
I have lived in rural VA since 1979. In that time, I have had countless hunting dogs come onto my property (I’ve lived in several counties, also) looking for food, shelter, a human (?). I have dogs, so perhaps they seek that. These dogs are in various levels of hunger, condition (highest level being fair condition), many injured in some way. About 1/3 had ID that was useful in reuniting dog with owner. But NOT ONCE in all those years has a hunter come to my door and said he’d lost a dog, would I watch for it, here is my phone #. In fact, my sense has always been that these hunters make very little effort to find their dogs at the end of the day. And I see MANY strays as I drive the back roads.
Additionally, the numbers of dead hunting breeds found on the side of the road is staggering. MANY more than other breeds.
And finally, I worked as a small animal vet tech for several years. The hunters who patronized our clinic seemed little interested in preventative vaccines and other meds. But if one of their dogs got sick/hurt, they wanted us to fix it, NOW, but do it for next to nothing in charges. They didn’t want to spend any money on these dogs. We made a couple of kennel calls and the conditions at these two “kennels” were abysmal.
So, given all of this personal experience, I would LOVE to see hunting with dogs banned (foxhunting the exception) completely. If the hunters can’t regulate themselves in caring for these helpless animals which THEY brought into the world, then they don’t need them.
It’s too bad your experience with hunting hasn’t been as positive as mine. I, and my family, have always hunted with dogs. Deer, rabbit, squirrel and fox. Mounted foxhunting is the exception in this state - and by no means should be excepted from any law or game regulations that other hunters much comply with.
There is nothing “special” about english style hunting except that we ride horses. It’s still hunting - and every single person out there must know and comply with all of our game laws and regs. And every person must have a hunting license. Shame on the foxhunter that feels the law does not apply to them.
While you feel hunting with dogs should be banned because of your personal experiences and prejudices, I’d prefer it if you keep your hands off my rabbit hound. Peanut and I like to chase rabbits - even if that offends your sensibilities. And I also like to hunt on foot with a pack of Basset Hounds. So if you don’t mind terribly, I’d like to continue to exercise my right (and it is a right in this state) to hunt. With my dogs.
The Pasquotank story is interesting. Particularly since there is nothing to substantiate that theory. Since I just happen to have family in that county, it might interest y’all to know that hunting was NOT the only issue discussed at that meeting, and those meetings are always contentious - and the most fighting and arguing in those meetings is about uncontrolled development and problems with stormwater management - or lack thereof. It is a troubled county. With a high crime rate. It is unfortunate that this gentleman feels justified in throwing his fellow hunters under the bus, and uses misinformation and innuendo to do it. Pasquotank is being overrun - not by dogs - but by Virginians in the Tidewater area moving into formerly rural areas and bringing traffic, artificially inflated housing, and pushing long time residents out. They can just no longer afford to live there. I think many rural residents can identify with that scenario - as we too are often forced out of our homes because we can no longer afford the taxes, and our communities are under constant pressure from developers.
Again, I don’t know one single sportsman that isn’t distressed at hearing of hunters that abuse our laws and game regs. I also don’t know of anyone that is against trying to resolve the ABUSE of the RTR.
As for still hunting; this gentleman might be interested to know that folks on this BB have complaints - and bullet holes in their homes or animals as proof - about still hunters, too. And the very folks he’s running down are the ones who are most vocal in defending hunting from animal rights people that populate this board. Heck - a still hunter almost managed to kill me the other day - not long after I’d posted about how ethical and safe hunting is. Ironic.
