Virginia Tech VA TECH "Made to Order" killing...

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Liberty;6498245]

I do NOT have a problem with euthed shelter animals being put to good use by going to a university for research/learning purposes. It sure is better than being dumped in a landfill or incinerator. With the number of animals euthed every day in shelters, I don’t ever see a need to grab extra because someone “needs” them right away, with no regard as to their adoptability or current, ongoing efforts to find them homes. A little planning would go a long way towards preventing this type of situation from happening.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree. Holds should be extended for dogs being networked by rescues.

True, and in this case, there are 4 sides to the bandwagon, but none of them are stepping up and being completely forthcoming. Two of those four are being completely silent on the issue.

But this is/will all become ancient, forgotten history. I can only hope that at least some of those involved have learned something from all this so that better, more prudent, choices can be made in the future.

That’s very true. As we move towards a no kill society, I would assume that veterinary schools will have to obtain their cadavers the same way medical schools do. The only downside I see is it will cost a bit more to supply and store.

[Horsegal984]

If the dogs/cats are being promoted to rescues then they should not be pulled in circumstances like this. Or if that is an option the rescues need to be told up front what day they have to have the animals out by. I have a hard time believing that there were not 8other nonadoptable animals in the shelter, and if not, then the shelter shoul have been allowed to contact other local resources to find suitable animals.

Ultimately I think we are all in agreement on how these animal should be allowed the best opportunity to find homes, but see different ways this situation could be presented and the facts twisted one way or another. I agree the best thing for everybody involved would be to issue a clear and honest statement. Even if that statement says we really FUBAR’d this, but here’s what we’re doing to keep it from happening again

[GraceLikeRain]

How do we know the shelter knew that a rescue was promoting the dog?

[Alagirl]

@LauraKY;6498353

Totally agree. Holds should be extended for dogs being networked by rescues.

depending on the rescue of course, and how they define ‘pulling’
Most shelters here have a deadline, clearly posted.

That’s very true. As we move towards a no kill society, I would assume that veterinary schools will have to obtain their cadavers the same way medical schools do. The only downside I see is it will cost a bit more to supply and store.
Breed their own or import from china?

Except for PETA loons, I don’t think anybody relishes in standing knee deep in dead animals. But frankly, it’s prefrable over spending years in the pound in kennel…

Alas, moot point.

[Hippolyta]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;6497892]

I wonder how the medical schools do it, what with not being able to place an order for inmates from the prison population, and all. However do they learn?[/QUOTE]

Well, a lot of them learned their first anat on dogs & cats. A lot of surgical training is done with dogs & cats. Would you rather have the student nurses practice intubation on people?

[paulaedwina]

The schools I work for teach A&P -there are companies that raise cats for dissection. Waiting for the shelter would be an unreliable source, not to mention you’d have animals in various health situations.

Paula

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=Hippolyta;6499066]
Well, a lot of them learned their first anat on dogs & cats. A lot of surgical training is done with dogs & cats. Would you rather have the student nurses practice intubation on people?[/QUOTE]

I used to be a certified EMT and I learned how to put in an airway on a doll.

[danceronice]

I would guess if there ever really is universal “no-kill”, there’ll be a lot more “terminally ill” animals in shelters needing “medical” euthanasia and a lot of shelters refusing to take animals without HUGE surrender fees. Our local shelter’s now desperate-they went from being county-run to letting a private no-kill manage it and they’re keeping cats in carriers in the lobby. And almost no one around here except the college kids bothers going to a shelter for a cat. No-kill is pointlessly naive and impractical.

If the “rescues” were in a big hurry for a particular dog they should have pulled it. Otherwise, schools need specimens from somewhere and it’s not like the shelter cages won’t be full again tomorrow. Pony up the cash for an animal, or it’s none of your business what’s done with it, and better going for specimens than wasteful incineration.

[AKB]

I have heard a lot of unsavory stories about VT in Blacksburg. For example, a 4 year old, healthy, cute and sound pony was purchased by the school so he could be euthanized and the new first year students would have to dissect the pony. After a bit of a ruckus, some of the 4th year students were allowed to purchase the pony and place the pony with a family. I heard this story second hand, so I can’t verify it. I also heard that the the student who organized the rehoming of the pony was not allowed to graduate on time. I did later listen to a speech by the dean, who said students had to “cooperate to graduate.”.

My feeling is that there are plenty of old, unhealthy and unwanted animals in this country. Schools should be organized enough to use those animals for pathology. I think there also would also be better learning if the animals, like human cadavers, had some illness/pathology.

[GraceLikeRain]

^ a horse doesn’t know that it is “wanted” versus “unwanted” nor do they have any understanding of life and death.

If a school legally purchases a horse and humanely euthanizes it then what’s the difference between young and old, healthy and unhealthy, loved and unloved?

Why does “cute” play into what animals should be used for pathology?

[LauraKY]

@Alagirl;6498859

Breed their own or import from china?

I’m fairly certain that medical schools don’t bred their own cadavers for gross anatomy. The bodies are donated to science.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Hippolyta;6499066]
Well, a lot of them learned their first anat on dogs & cats. A lot of surgical training is done with dogs & cats. Would you rather have the student nurses practice intubation on people?[/QUOTE]

I believe that less than 10 medical schools use live animals and the number is decreasing every year.

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;6500967]
^ a horse doesn’t know that it is “wanted” versus “unwanted” nor do they have any understanding of life and death.

If a school legally purchases a horse and humanely euthanizes it then what’s the difference between young and old, healthy and unhealthy, loved and unloved?

Why does “cute” play into what animals should be used for pathology?[/QUOTE]

As the great philosopher Dennis Leary said, “We like to save the cute animals. ‘What are you?’ ‘I’m an otter, I do cute little human things with my hands.’ ‘You’re free to go. What are you?’ ‘I’m a cow.’ ‘GET ON THE TRUCK!’ ‘But…I’m a cow, I-’ ‘YOU’RE A BASEBALL GLOVE, GET ON THE F***IN TRUCK!’” OBVIOUSLY, a cute widdle pony is too cute to use as a path specimen!

Med schools are increasingly desperate for cadavers because there are actually NOT a backlog of people looking to donate their bodies (and a lot of bleeding hearts object to letting them use prisoners, John Does, etc.) Why put pressure on the vet schools, too? These animals are not in shelters/kill pens/for sale because people are beating down the door to give them homes. There’s nothing inherently noble about incinerating perfectly good specimens instead of dissecting them. Even zoo animals are necropsied and samples, including mounted hides or skeletons, are kept for research, and those are animals that usually had names and were wanted.

[Alagirl]

@LauraKY;6501220

I’m fairly certain that medical schools don’t bred their own cadavers for gross anatomy. The bodies are donated to science.

Well, in the past the specimens were collected from unwilling participants.

I do believe in some 3rd world countries it was not unheard off of people going missing…I am sure that preceeds the 70s though…when I was in high school in the 80s one teacher examined the schools skeleton, suggesting it was a young female…
Not to mention that much of the preserved stock in German Universities was acquired in the 1930s (hint HINT) and that is a cause for controversy.

The point is you can’t study doctoring without cadavers.
And considering that some places in the world have very little regard for life, including humans…so they off their prisoners not with the bullet to the back of the head and harvest kidneys, they gas them and debone them. Or deflesh…

Same with vet schools. The no-kill is fantastic. Then you get to looking at the inmates who have been in shelters for years.

There is a surplus of unwanted cats. cat fur was (I am sure fibers have made improvements) a prime material to make under garments for arthritis sufferers. You would think that surplus cats can support the industry locally, right.
WRONG and they had to have the supply produced in China…
Yeah, that helps the population. The local cats are still killed, but on the other side of the world we breed them to harvest the hides.

Borders on insanity.

Yes, we are making progress…

(no wonder the great civilizations implode every few thousand years)

[AKB]

I think a lot of us feel that if a young, useful, sound horse could be placed in a good home and the old, unsound or not suitable for placement horse could be used as a pathology specimen, that is how it should be done. I also believe in trying to encourage compassion in students. Before they put an animal down, I would like them to think about whether or not it could have a better use. As soon as we lose compassion for animals, our compassion for humans seems to decrease. Maybe I am in the ever decreasing minority when I want to care for the young, old, sick and poor, humans in our society.

[Alagirl]

@AKB;6502663

I think a lot of us feel that if a young, useful, sound horse could be placed in a good home and the old, unsound or not suitable for placement horse could be used as a pathology specimen, that is how it should be done. I also believe in trying to encourage compassion in students. Before they put an animal down, I would like them to think about whether or not it could have a better use. As soon as we lose compassion for animals, our compassion for humans seems to decrease. Maybe I am in the ever decreasing minority when I want to care for the young, old, sick and poor, humans in our society.

if you only ever look at sick stuff, how can you tell it from a healthy one?
You have no baseline.

It’s not about the caring part, it’s about the fact that life always ends with death.
And that to study the body, human and animal alike you have to look at it. And that is not always pretty.