These get a lot of airplay here in Oregon.
I’m delighted to see that there still are some one-guy, one-at-a-time saddle makers producing these.
But why do you people want:
Hard seat and slick fork (that many then add bucking rolls to, later?).
Deep.
I’m just asking because my favorite western saddles are the over-stuffed Cadillac equitation saddles of the 1980s.
I can see why a reiner or cutter will want a more open and slippery seat.
But whaddup wit’ da Wade fetish?
Tradition, fitting the “look”.
Myself?
I say, why buy a slick fork saddle and add bucking rolls, when you can have any kind or size of swells in more modern saddles that are more steady and stable?
Some times, old stuff is as good as new, others, well, there is a reason saddles were modified from the old trees to those with swells, that being a better mousetrap.
Now, if you have to look the part, be my guest and ride whatever it takes for that.
Any saddlemaker can make a good saddle that fits you in any style and any rider can learn to ride any kind of saddle, even bump in the log feeling A frame ones.:lol:
My preference over all saddles, nice, deeper, sofa comfy Stubbens.
Yes, I know, the horn is missing.
I have a friend who is a dedicated, very capable, classical dressage rider. She had a home-bred young horse that was ready to start, but, getting up in years, she decided to have the horsemanship guy that I ride with start the filly for her. She went out to visit one time and the guy asked her if she wanted to ride, but she didn’t have her saddle with her. She reluctantly got on his Wade tree saddle, and was gobsmacked to find out that the balance was exactly the same as her custom dressage saddles.
Too many western saddles do not have a good centered balance for the rider. Some, because they have a special purpose; some, because they’re made by people who don’t know any better. Many (particularly “popularly priced” ones) have poorly made seats that are just plain uncomfortable. But with a good ground seat, even a hard saddle is not uncomfortable. People who want to be able to sit in the middle of their horse, in comfort, and also be able to feel what’s going on underneath them, will like a Wade saddle.
Beyond that, it has a lot to do with what someone happened to be riding in when that style of horsemanship started to become well known. Life is like that.
—People who want to be able to sit in the middle of their horse, in comfort, and also be able to feel what’s going on underneath them, will like a Wade saddle."—
That is not only found in a wade saddle, you get exactly the same with any well made saddle, no matter what swell, rigging or name you put on it.
How about posting in a slick fork?
I don’t find myself annoyed by the puffy “equitation bump” in my saddles or the swells. But do people like the slick fork because the guy trotting for miles can post in the slick fork?
[QUOTE=mvp;6973037]
How about posting in a slick fork?
I don’t find myself annoyed by the puffy “equitation bump” in my saddles or the swells. But do people like the slick fork because the guy trotting for miles can post in the slick fork?[/QUOTE]
I don’t have any trouble posting in any of my western saddles with swells?
Neither does anyone around here, in all kinds of styles of saddles.
Most cowboys today post when long trotting across the pastures.
So it’s not just me and my Englishness-- most people can post in whatever.
Looking at raw saddle trees, I now think that the slick fork tree is just more primitive: No one had to add wood and sculpt it to make swells. If you are making your own tree and then the whole saddle, I can see why you’d want to offer a simple tree.
Yeah, the Wade is In Style for sure.
A proper Wade tree will ride like a dressage saddle, and by design its post horn sits lower, closer to the withers so there is less leverage (twist or pull on the withers) than a swell-fork saddle.
It lets you ride with a leg position like this:
http://ranchandcountry.com/article_info.php?articles_id=7
(last photo)
There are plenty of western riders who use oxbow stirrups, ride with a chair seat, or otherwise brace against their stirrups for balance. These types will customize their ‘Wade’ saddles with bucking rolls and more forward-hung stirrups. Also, if someone braces against their stirrups, they will usually prefer a tall, straight-up style ‘shovel’ cantle:
http://www.tamaragoochphoto.com/gallery2/gallery2Embedded.php?g2_itemId=505
Since people like the ‘Wade’ look, there are saddles made on western trees where the swells are simply taken off, and a bigger horn put on. These aren’t really Wades, they’re sort of slick fork Wade style saddles. The horn is too high, and the way the tree is made, are not the same as an original Wade:
http://www.horsesaddleshop.com/wade-ranch-saddle1.html#.UYgMM0pDzFc
Here are a couple of ‘real’ Wades…
http://www.ranchworldads.com/classified.php?listing=11204
http://www.ranchworldads.com/classified.php?listing=5315
Here’s a little about Wade trees from Kent Frecker (he’s made the more recent saddles that Buck Brannaman has):
http://www.freckerssaddlery.com/wade_saddle_tree_history.php
I don’t know if I’d call the Wade more primitive…it certainly is easier to make a saddle, if you don’t have to accommodate the swells. But the tree has more wood, more width to the bars, which can make them more comfortable for a horse, because the pressure from the bars (especially up front, toward the horn) is spread out over a larger area than it would over a typical swell fork saddle.
I really like the Wade, for riding allllll dayyy looonnngggg. You get a lot of support from it, and there isn’t much to get in your way. Excepting perhaps the horn if you jump some really high windfall…but I do need the horn every now and then.
Mvp, you’ll just have to come ride in mine to give it a try!
[QUOTE=mvp;6973176]
So it’s not just me and my Englishness-- most people can post in whatever.
Looking at raw saddle trees, I now think that the slick fork tree is just more primitive: No one had to add wood and sculpt it to make swells. If you are making your own tree and then the whole saddle, I can see why you’d want to offer a simple tree.[/QUOTE]
That may be, but don’t make the mistake of thinking “primitive” means “not as good”.
When it comes to a bit more security if a horse acts up by having swells, the bucking rolls make up for that, or a rolled up old army type blanket, as many used before they put swells on the saddle trees.
In reality, if a horse bucks so you are hitting the swells, while they may keep ou in there better, you may also get black and blue from hitting there.
I think that saddles, just as people, come in all kinds because they are used by people that also come in all kinds.
What fits someone may not be what fits someone else best, that is why there are so many out there.
Even in plainer English saddles, different styles and models fit some better than others and the differences there are not as big as they can be in all kinds of western saddles.
I have had a really hard horse to fit, very wide AQHA mare. My dressage saddle is an XW. She was in a really narrow saddle for her and her back and shoulders were atrophied and had big white marks when I bought her two years ago. During the the next year she grew out of every saddle I owned. I decided to go the custom route again after she grew out of my custom cow horse saddle that was made for a fjordX. The wade tree was a great fit, the saddler sent me the tree to fit to her after tons of pictures, tracings etc.
I bought a Cactus barrel saddle that was wide while the custom wade was being built. By the time the custom wade came, my mare had grown out of the Cactus saddle, too. The wade fits the mare beautifully, but honestly, I have struggled with the wade style. I didn’t want the bucking rolls, but after playing on cows, I put them on. A bit disconcerting to have so little pommel in front of me when she dropped down in front on a cow. My dressage saddle has way more support than the wade.
I did have to take the wade in to a local saddler to have the fenders and exposed leathers reworked. Just too much leather under my leg. I do not ride with my feet sticking out, but that was what the saddle wanted me to do. It will be better now. It is very comfortable, but I am still not on board with the wade horn when riding a super quick horse on cattle. Sorting, not roping.
I just found another little barrel saddle that is wide enough for this mare, and it will be what I use for sorting cattle and arena work. I really like the security and the fact my leg is on the horse and right under me. I plan on keeping my wade saddle and plan to use it for trail riding.
So, the jury is still out on the wade saddle for me. I really prefer a cow horse type of saddle, with a full pommel, mid height cantle and a roping type horn.
Oh, and of course the newer dressage saddles with enormous thigh blocks have been designed to create a platform for someone to ‘comfortably’ pull back on the reins all the time. Funny how some saddles are ‘customized’ to create harmony between horse and rider, and others are ‘customized’ to really set up that chair seat.
Anyway, yes, you can post in about anything.
And I do want to expand on Bluey’s observation about different styles and models of english saddles: I don’t have a ‘Stubben’ butt, but I do have a lovely Burney Brothers jump saddle, and an ancient County Competitor. Unless you are galloping a lot, say foxhunting, (and thus standing in the stirrups), you don’t want your knees bent much for an all day ride.
But there are other things about my Wade that I love, that may not be true of just any Wade or Wade-style-wannabe saddle: the fenders are made with a stirrup leather that doesn’t continue all the way around, it is riveted at the bottom of the fender. This makes it so the stirrup hangs level, which it won’t if you have a 3 inch wide stirrup leather that is one continuous loop. In addition, the stirrups have a Hamley twist, and the bottoms of the stirrups are ‘padded’ with leather, so that the stirrup hangs exactly level and perpendicular to the horse. Now THAT makes for happy knees!
Wade is a fork term, not a tree term:
http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/files/8413/0763/5598/Wade_Forks.pdf
For ropers, getting the dally as low down on the horse’s back minimizes leverage, and a large dia post horn makes a nice clutch for slipping.
For non ropers…umm, they’re good looking horns to rest on? Popular with clinicians?
No need to ride a slick horn with bucking rolls if you’ve ridden in English saddles, and hard seats are just as comfy if not moreso on really long rides if they’re shaped right.
I’ll disagree with Rod Nikkel, though I readily admit he knows more than I do, by a LONG ways, about making a good tree.
The term ‘snaffle’ has come to commonly, and in some circles acceptably, describe the mouthpiece of a bit, rather than its lack of leverage. After all, you can have a mullen mouth snaffle, and it by definition does not have a jointed mouthpiece that many people use to define the term ‘snaffle’.
In the same way I don’t buy the term ‘snaffle bit with leverage’, I don’t buy the ‘Wade is a fork term’ argument. I call a slick-fork saddle, a slick fork saddle, and a Wade to ME is a saddle designed along Tom Dorrance and Cliff Wade’s specifications, for more than just the slick fork. Horn is low and large diameter, bars are wider with more rock, stirrups are hung to ride underneath, not forward…not JUST a slick fork.
[QUOTE=Fillabeana;6973617]
I’ll disagree with Rod Nikkel, though I readily admit he knows more than I do, by a LONG ways, about making a good tree.
The term ‘snaffle’ has come to commonly, and in some circles acceptably, describe the mouthpiece of a bit, rather than its lack of leverage. After all, you can have a mullen mouth snaffle, and it by definition does not have a jointed mouthpiece that many people use to define the term ‘snaffle’.
In the same way I don’t buy the term ‘snaffle bit with leverage’, I don’t buy the ‘Wade is a fork term’ argument. I call a slick-fork saddle, a slick fork saddle, and a Wade to ME is a saddle designed along Tom Dorrance and Cliff Wade’s specifications, for more than just the slick fork. Horn is low and large diameter, bars are wider with more rock, stirrups are hung to ride underneath, not forward…not JUST a slick fork.[/QUOTE]
Don’t forget the specific rigging to a Wade.:yes:
Although for the discussion here, I was assuming we were talking about all and any A frame front, so the confusion is understandable.
[QUOTE=Fillabeana;6973617]
, I don’t buy the ‘Wade is a fork term’ argument. I call a slick-fork saddle, a slick fork saddle, and a Wade to ME is a saddle designed along Tom Dorrance and Cliff Wade’s specifications, for more than just the slick fork. Horn is low and large diameter, bars are wider with more rock, stirrups are hung to ride underneath, not forward…not JUST a slick fork.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that the Wade isn’t the first saddle/tree style to have or even combine these features.
I imagine you’re quoting this article:
http://www.freckerssaddlery.com/wade_saddle_tree_history.php
However, a large diameter, low wood horn is not uncommon in charro saddles. Is a Wade a Wade if the horn is round, or is a Guadalahara horn shape allowed?
Wider bars with more rock…in reference to what? Those are improvements Tom Dorrance made to the saddle he was riding, but both of those changes may be inappropriate for certain horses. Mules, in particular, often need little rock in the bars.
Finally, the center hung stirrup position is simply a matter of a la jineta vs a la brida. If you look at almost all the saddles here, you’ll see a balanced seat with centered stirrups:
http://www.schradersaddles.com/Old%20Style%20Saddles.htm
The smaller seat almost forced that arrangement, unlike modern hugely lengthened saddles.
Those characteristics alone don’t determine a Wade. After all, Tom’s old Wade looks much different:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=tom+dorrance+wade+saddle&safe=off&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=v2yIUbnSEsLCigLrn4G4CQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=644#biv=i|1%3Bd|fncd2k6AfmxSQM%3A
…from Buck’s modern Wade:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=buck+brannaman+wade&safe=off&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=42yIUeq2AoGliQK30oDACA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=644#biv=i|0%3Bd|j2knK3a84t89IM%3A
They share a lot of similarities, but some differences too. Fork stock thickness and cantle height are the most obvious.
Personally, I still think Rod is right. The fork is the Wade part, rock and bar shape are simply suited to the particular horse, seat shape is determined by the rider’s pelvic conformation and stirrup placement by foot length,and riding philosophy, and the rest is merely rider preference (skirt shape and size, Cheyenne roll or not, horn cap shape etc).
Still, the argument will go on and on in all circles:
http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=1907
[QUOTE=Bluey;6973685]
Don’t forget the specific rigging to a Wade.:yes:
Although for the discussion here, I was assuming we were talking about all and any A frame front, so the confusion is understandable.[/QUOTE]
Not all Wades are plate rigged, nor was the plate rig designed for the Wade. See here:
http://milescitysaddlery.com/History.html
Plate rigs are more durable than most other styles, which actual working cowboys might appreciate, but double d rigging in particuar places less leather under the leg and also allows for freer stirrup movement.
[QUOTE=Bluey;6973350]
That may be, but don’t make the mistake of thinking “primitive” means “not as good”.
When it comes to a bit more security if a horse acts up by having swells, the bucking rolls make up for that, or a rolled up old army type blanket, as many used before they put swells on the saddle trees.
In reality, if a horse bucks so you are hitting the swells, while they may keep ou in there better, you may also get black and blue from hitting there.
I think that saddles, just as people, come in all kinds because they are used by people that also come in all kinds.
What fits someone may not be what fits someone else best, that is why there are so many out there.
Even in plainer English saddles, different styles and models fit some better than others and the differences there are not as big as they can be in all kinds of western saddles.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t mean “primitive” in a bad way. I just remember seeing a truly naked tree-- with the wood before it was covered in rawhide-- and noted how much more complicated the “stacked and then sculpted” wood was when swells were involved.
[QUOTE=Bluey;6973031]
—People who want to be able to sit in the middle of their horse, in comfort, and also be able to feel what’s going on underneath them, will like a Wade saddle."—
That is not only found in a wade saddle, you get exactly the same with any well made saddle, no matter what swell, rigging or name you put on it.;)[/QUOTE]
Very true, but if you walk into many western tack stores with a large selection of new and used, low- to mid-priced saddles, the majority of them will kill your seatbones and put your feet on the dashboard. So, someone new-ish to western riding, absent good advice, has a good chance of landing with a saddle with poor balance. Or, even if the spend some $$, if they end up with a cutting saddle, for example, or even some reining ones, they’ll be back on their butt a lot more than in a Wade. And, for me, I was never able to really feel my horse in an equitation seat saddle. Hold you in a great position, but heaven help you if your horse actually moves …
The point about Wade trees (and the complete shebang Wade saddles) vs. mere slick forks is well-taken.
OMG, you guys are killing me with all this information!!! What the heck is a slick fork? I saw pictures on one of the links above, but there were no (forgot the name of the other type)_____ pictures to compare it to!
And how is one to know what kind of Western saddle they want/need? When I got my mustang I wanted a Western saddle so I had a fitter out who had a ton of them - different styles, different brands. I must have sat in 10 of them. We narrowed it down to the one I liked the best and it was a Specialized Western Trail saddle. It has English rigging (is that what it is called? billet straps) and not too much leather under the leg, which is what the others felt like.
But, but, but . . . there’s so much to know that it boggles my mind and if I’m thinking of getting another one (kind of, but I don’t need it so not really), then what?
ACK!!!
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