Wall Eyes, are they passed on?

[OverRabbitFarm]

I am looking at a colt foal for a stallion prospect. He has quite a big blaze and white wraps around his nose. I of course do not know this for sure, but have been told he might have the Sabino gene. On one eye, he looks to have the side to side wall eye around a brown colored eye.

In your experience, does this pass on to the offspring?

I would attach a photo but I don’t know how. I would like to see if you all agree in fact, that he has a wall eye.

Also, in your experience as breeders, have you crossed a grey stallion who’s dam was also grey, on a palomino? If so, what did you get. I have a great little grey stallion I bought a breeding to and a stunning little palomino mare I found to lease for breeding. I have been told several things, one of which was I would get a very “icky” color and not to do it. Any personal experience with this would be awesome!

Thanks so much!

[rideagoldenpony]

What is a “wall eye”?

If he has a big blaze, then one would assume that yes, he is a sabino.

Blue eyes seem to be sabino related, and sometimes you get them, but more often you do not.

As for grey x palomino – a palomino turning grey is an unattractive color for a few years. Perhaps that is what your friend was referring to. But you’re not necessarily going to get that every time you make a grey x palomino cross.

[coloredcowhorse]

Big blazes that wrap around the muzzle can be from either sabino or splash white…if lacey edged and with some freckles it is more likely to be sabino while smoother edges and frequently a flat top to the blaze is usually splash white. Sabino TENDS to produce more narrow facial white although it can go wide…if it goes wide it tends to produce “mustache” type lip markings…either on the upper lip or a roundish patch of colored skin in the corner of the mouth. Splash TENDS to produce wide facial white that widens more down the muzzle although it too can be narrow…I have a minimal splash white mare with a tiny star and a 2 x 4 inch rectangular snip that runs lengthwise/diagonally down over one nostril and only a fleck of blue in one eye…and she produced a foal with a Nike Swoosh star, big triangular snip from mid muzzle widening down over both nostrils, one blue eye and a big roan belly spot (along with a couple stockings). Sabino does not produce blue eyes while splash can/does(but not all the time)…not sure if this is what you are referring to or not. If you are talking only about a white sclera (the area that in people is white and in most dark eyed horses is brownish) then any facial white that is near the eye can produce this. It’s merely a pigment location thing.

Gray on palomino can produce any number of things…need more info on stallion color (gray is not a color…it is a modifier and it eliminates color in the hairs resulting in a white hair eventually…and the horse goes gray). If the stallion is heterozygous for gray (would have to either have two hetero gray parents or one that is gray…hetero or not…and one not gray) he will only have a 50% chance of passing that gray gene to any single conception. If he’s homozygous for gray (having two gray parents and inheriting the gene from each…% chance would depend on THEIR homo or heterozygous status) he would always pass it to a foal. In the meantime a paly is a red horse with a single cream gene so would always pass a red gene to the foal and would have a 50% chance of passing the cream. Depending on what color the stallion actually is underneath the gray modification you could get a variety of foal colors…if he’s bay for instance you might get black, bay, buckskin, palomino (if he’s hetero for black), smokey black and any of these could also inherit the gray from him. Palominos that go gray do tend to go through some very funky stages in getting there…sometimes smokey colored, dirty cream, dirty paly, odd mixes of all of these…hard to predict.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@rideagoldenpony;5624827

As for grey x palomino – a palomino turning grey is an unattractive color for a few years. Perhaps that is what your friend was referring to. But you’re not necessarily going to get that every time you make a grey x palomino cross.

A friend has a palomino turning grey…she is actually a really cool looking color. Of course we were bummed she wasn’t going to stay palomino. But I think it is all in the eye of the beholder.

Breeding a grey to a palomino…if the stallion has any offspring that are not grey, you would only have a 50% chance of getting a grey foal. What other color you may get completely depends on what color the stallion was before he went grey.

[rideagoldenpony]

You’re very welcome to send me a picture of him.

It was great to talk to you. Call me ANY time!!!

[SmartAlex]

The only grey on pally horse I ever saw was pretty cool looking. Looked like a yellow roan.

[JB]

I have seen quite a few pali-going-gray horses that where positively breathtaking. Gray darkens things at first, and a really dark gold, or darker, is very cool.

[rodawn]

Yes, wall eyes can be inherited. In some registries it’s of little concern. Some registries frown on them. Check with the registry this horse is with and see if it is mentioned as a concerning flaw.

I, personally, avoid horses with wall eyes. Whether the horse is sabino, splash, single dilute or cremello, whatever, as that is irrelevant. Wall eyes are found in any color of horse. Personally, I want big, clear, kind eyes that are properly formed with an appropriately good sized iris. If the iris of one eye is smaller and permanently ringed white (a wall eye), I avoid it, whether it be in one eye or both eyes. Again, eye color isn’t the issue - blue, hazel, brown, whatever. It’s the size of the iris that counts.

But like I said, some registries don’t care if a horse has a wall eye or not. If this is your stallion prospect, you need to check out the registry carefully and determine what are considered flaws for the breed.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=rodawn;5625528]
Yes, wall eyes can be inherited. In some registries it’s of little concern. Some registries frown on them. Check with the registry this horse is with and see if it is mentioned as a concerning flaw.

I, personally, avoid horses with wall eyes. Whether the horse is sabino, splash, single dilute or cremello, whatever, as that is irrelevant. Wall eyes are found in any color of horse. Personally, I want big, clear, kind eyes that are properly formed with an appropriately good sized iris. If the iris of one eye is smaller and permanently ringed white (a wall eye), I avoid it, whether it be in one eye or both eyes. Again, eye color isn’t the issue - blue, hazel, brown, whatever. It’s the size of the iris that counts.

But like I said, some registries don’t care if a horse has a wall eye or not. If this is your stallion prospect, you need to check out the registry carefully and determine what are considered flaws for the breed.[/QUOTE]

But is what you are describing as “wall eye” a smaller iris or just a white sclera (normal/breed characteristic in Appy, POA and one would guess Knobstrupper [sp?]). A white sclera has nothing to do with visual acuity or anything else in terms of vision or personality.

[rodawn]

Yes, which is why I said some registries don’t mind them at all, but there are other registries that strictly frown on it. It depends on what the breed of the horse is and whether the registry ALLOWS it. I’m a warmblood breeder. I don’t allow wall eyes in my breeding stock. Whether I get a palomino, tobiano, buckskin, cremello or solid colored warmblood, I will not have wall eyes in my breeding program. I reject stallions and mares who have them. And then there are other registries who have no concerns whatsoever about them.

The question being asked was: Whether they are inheritable. The answer is: Yes, they are inheritable.

[VirginiaBred]

Walleyes are not something that is favorable in the Hunter world. Western, Welsh, Gaited, Arabian and other genres of equine disciplines aren’t as particular about them.

Yes, they most definitely are passed on.

[Kerole]

Is the OP referring to a blue eye or a ‘poached egg’ eye (white sclera)?

[rcloisonne]

[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5625666]
A white sclera has nothing to do with visual acuity or anything else in terms of vision or personality.[/QUOTE]
Actually, horses with a lot of sclera are much more prone to ERU. I would avoid this at all costs.

[OverRabbitFarm]

WOW, thanks EVERYONE!

I had no idea I was getting all these responses! I usually post on Chron and never get answers (I chalked it up to having way to bring questions! LOL) I wasn’t getting these comments in my email, so had no idea.

So, thank you!

Ok, in regards to the eye. He does have a brown eye, and its a pretty eye too, nice and big puppy dog eye. But, he has a little bit of white around the edges. It is not blue. So maybe it is not called a wall eye, but more so a “human eye” If somebody could tell me how to attach a photo I would, sorry about that.

As for the stallion. I am finding out right now what color he was born. I think he was born chestnut. His sire is a dark chestnut and still trying to find out what color mother is. The stallion I am using is Falling Moon Merlin (Telynau Royal Anthem/Telynau Fiesta). The mare I am considering is (Ledijadon S’unbelievable x Amesbury Katrina) both ponies have some fab blood lines in there, so we are excited.

This will be my first experience with breeding, so I am really excited.

Thank you for the info on the sabino and splash genes and all the other amazing information. I will be printing it all out and having a look at it.

As for the little colt with all the white, I need to meet him. I will be going to Wales in a couple weeks and will meet him then. See his little eye up close and feel him out! I want to go back though and look at the photos to see if he is a lacey edge or smooth edge! Cool info! Thanks ALL!

[TaliaCristianna]

[QUOTE=OverRabbitFarm;5627770]
Ok, in regards to the eye. He does have a brown eye, and its a pretty eye too, nice and big puppy dog eye. But, he has a little bit of white around the edges. It is not blue. So maybe it is not called a wall eye, but more so a “human eye” If somebody could tell me how to attach a photo I would, sorry about that.[/QUOTE]

What you are referring to is a visible sclera. A visible sclera doesn’t generally have any connection to white face markings. A walleye is a “slang” term for blue eye - and is suggestive of the presence of a white pattern gene such as splash or frame overo.

Visible scleras can be hereditary. It’s actually considered a breed trait for the Appaloosa - however all breeds carry the trait.

There is nothing physically wrong with a visible sclera and I don’t know of any breed that actually discriminates against the trait. It does not cause health issues. Whether you like the look of it is a matter of personal preference only.

I happen to own three mares that by chance have this trait. One mother and daughter and one completely unrelated filly. I actually like the look of it and I don’t think it looks harsh. I think it makes them a bit more complex looking if that makes any sense!

http://www.silverspringfarm.net/images/angel3.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8174678@N03/5765018300/in/photostream

[TaliaCristianna]

[QUOTE=rcloisonne;5627363]
Actually, horses with a lot of sclera are much more prone to ERU. I would avoid this at all costs.[/QUOTE]

I would be very interested in seeing where you got this information - since uvietis affects the uvea and not the sclera. Two totally different parts of the eye.

[JB]

Maybe rcloisonne is making the connection between the prominence of the white sclera and uveitis together in appy characteristics?

[Kerole]

I always thought white sclera was linked to large white face markings…

Have I got this wrong?

[quicksilverponies]

I have a filly with sclera in one eye that won top ribbons inhand in Pony Hunter Breeding. She was 2nd at Upperville as a 2 yr old. Her handler, Oliver Brown, who was just named Best Handler this week at Devon, always tells me…“a nice pony is a nice pony” . I don’t think it is necessarily a bad thing - even in the hunter ring. There are MANY top hunter ponies -especially Welsh -that have sclera and are winning top ribbons.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=Kerole;5628817]
I always thought white sclera was linked to large white face markings…

Have I got this wrong?[/QUOTE]

Nope…although the face white may be minimal or even absent, it is a somewhat subtle hint that there may be the genetics present for that facial white. I have a tobi filly, dam is minimal splash white…very minimal…to the point of being registered as a solid and no one looking at her and not being familiar with splash would even guess that it is there…sire was tobi. Filly has no facial white at all (not even under lower jaw) but does have white sclera on both eyes. Chances are good that she got the splash from her dam and just no expression of it on her face (where tobi doesn’t put white). She COULD have other splash characteristics hidden in her tobi pattern…leg white, belly white, tail tip white for instance…but since she is also tobi I can’t make them out as distinctly splash. Would be interesting in several years to see if she passes along splash characteristics when bred to non-splash stallion.