Wanting to show western but...

[huntseat3]

Ok here it goes…

I have a 9 year old 15.3hh Quarter horse that was started in western pleasure but seemed to have more of a knack for hunt seat, so that’s the direction previous owners, and myself, have taken with him. We’re working with a trainer to show in AQHA hunter under saddle and equitation. I ride him western occasionally, but I never really expected to take it anywhere, at least not now. But recently I’ve been considering showing him in some western classes in local open shows. He’s a fine western horse; he neck reins, has a slow jog, and canters more like an English horse but is still relaxed and balanced. Here’s the problem…my sister doesn’t want me to. Hear me out-

My dad wants me and this horse to show in western classes. He’ll bring it up around show season and tells me he would really like to see us do western, that my horse could do it, etc. Whenever he brings it up my sister will ask why I would want to do that, say that I don’t have any stuff (clothes, boots, etc), and says that if I did we’d be competing in the same classes. She wants it to be her do her thing (western) and me do mine (English.) However, I want to do all-around (only at open shows, just hunt seat in AQHA), and my horse could do it. Yes, I like hunt seat better, but I like western too. I know she’s jealous that I would be ‘taking over her discipline’ and that I would get to show in more classes, and I feel kind of bad (because I don’t look at it that way) but at the same time I want to do it. My goal is not to outshine her but that’s how she sees it. I just want my horse to get more experience, and see how well he could do. Help! What do I do? I’m so torn. I feel like if I decided to show western there’d be some big blowup…

[Fillabeana]

First thing, I would go to your dad for a one-on-one.
Tell him, you’re getting a vibe that your sister needs to have ‘her thing’, and that it looks to you like if you DID show your horse in western classes, she would feel bad about it.

You want your sister to learn and grow. You want to learn and grow.

Is your sister older, or younger?
Could you set it up, so you don’t ever ride in the same classes? So that if you do, the ‘winner’ does something special for the ‘loser’?
Can you get help from a pastor, family counselor, anyone who can help with the underlying issues?
Because while you will sometimes make decisions to let it be someone else’s day, you can’t live your whole life protecting somebody else at your own expense. Future relationships (your own boyfriends, husband, children) can really suffer if that’s the route you ‘learn’ here. But relationships will also suffer if you just sort of say, ‘screw that’ and go do ‘your’ thing, anyway.

Your challenge is to find out how to change the Horse Show thing, in your family, without changing your sister’s enjoyment or value as a family member. Maybe she could add a class, or a new discipline, as well, (Reining? Jumping? Western Riding? Trail?) and have her own new enterprise, too.

[huntseat3]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7408967]
First thing, I would go to your dad for a one-on-one.
Tell him, you’re getting a vibe that your sister needs to have ‘her thing’, and that it looks to you like if you DID show your horse in western classes, she would feel bad about it.

You want your sister to learn and grow. You want to learn and grow.

Is your sister older, or younger?
Could you set it up, so you don’t ever ride in the same classes? So that if you do, the ‘winner’ does something special for the ‘loser’?
Can you get help from a pastor, family counselor, anyone who can help with the underlying issues?
Because while you will sometimes make decisions to let it be someone else’s day, you can’t live your whole life protecting somebody else at your own expense. Future relationships (your own boyfriends, husband, children) can really suffer if that’s the route you ‘learn’ here. But relationships will also suffer if you just sort of say, ‘screw that’ and go do ‘your’ thing, anyway.

Your challenge is to find out how to change the Horse Show thing, in your family, without changing your sister’s enjoyment or value as a family member. Maybe she could add a class, or a new discipline, as well, (Reining? Jumping? Western Riding? Trail?) and have her own new enterprise, too.[/QUOTE]
She’s 2 1/2 years younger.

[CHT]

What if you asked her for help? Would that perhaps make her feel part of it and special?

I agree with trying to show in classes that aren’t against her if possible, but ultimately I think you need to do what you want to do, as long as you are doing it for the right reasons.

[huntseat3]

[QUOTE=CHT;7409306]
What if you asked her for help? Would that perhaps make her feel part of it and special?

I agree with trying to show in classes that aren’t against her if possible, but ultimately I think you need to do what you want to do, as long as you are doing it for the right reasons.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I’m not doing it to try to hurt her at all.

I would be in adult classes and she would be in youth, but we would still be in some open age classes together.

[huntseat3]

But the thing is, she doesn’t like the idea of me doing western at all.

[Emilia]

The same-gender sibling rivalry.

If you are 19 (read your posts in H/J), she is 16.5 years old. She is just about at the time of her life, when “defining” herself against others is very important to her. So, understandably, you wanting to “sneak” into her “territory” is viewed as a threat by her.

I am quite surprised, your dad seems oblivious to the dynamics. What about mom? What is her point of view?

I know nothing about your family, the level of cohesion, little quiet battles you fight, etc.

The following is a point of view of someone, for whom family matters a lot and who was taught to “dance little dances” to preserve the cohesion.

Also, in my writing, I am taking into account your H/J thread, in which you state, you are an amateur, who is primarily interested in the improvement of English riding/showing. Riding is not your profession.

So, if this happened to me, under these circumstances (me being primarily interested in English as an amateur), I would stick to English shows and let little sis have her Western shows. I would ride Western for fun, if I felt so inclined, but I would not show in it.

Now, in that age, I would present my decision as an act of generosity on my side- “I have my outlet and you can keep yours.” I would leave no doubt, it is not a step down.

I would also keep the door open by telling her, that if the horse does not work out as an English hunter, I might just not have another choice, but take a Western route.

This sounds much less like a threat, because it is not you “taking over the territory,” because you “feel like it;” it is you going in, because you have no other option, if you want to show the animal you own (and not to sell, etc.).

If you really end up going Western, because your horse won’t work out as hunter (which I doubt- people on the H/J liked the horse), you should consider involving your sister in the transition as your “advisor.” You might not need one, but it would help her to transform from a “threatened old timer” into a “welcome committee.”

Living in a family is a delicate balancing act. I am very traditional and not individualistic at all, so my advice might not work for you.

Good Luck!

[ccoronios]

Back about a zillion years ago, I worked at a barn. One of the show students was a kid who saw no value in school or piano classes or dance classes. All of which her [about 2 year older] sister excelled in. So B took riding lessons and blossomed (and improved a bit in schoolwork). She was my absolute FAVORITIST kid at this old barn. Deal was, older sister did NOT ride. Once B started showing, older sister was allowed to take lessons, but NOT show. Older sister was not particularly enthusiastic about this arrangement.

Years went by; B became an international level dressage rider, whom I videoed numerous times. I had a chance to visit with her one evening and felt that I sure wished we had more time to talk, she was someone I thought I’d really like to get to know. Then she became terminally ill, and died. A couple months later, her trainer (from this old barn) and I were talking, and he asked me if I knew who “X” (a famous dressage rider who’d died recently) was. I said ‘yes - we did a lot of video for her’. “But do you know who she IS?” Well obviously, I was missing something, so he asked, “Do you remember B…?” (Even today, right now typing this, I tear up thinking about this) Yup - famous dressage rider was our little B.

So I tracked down and wrote her older sister - expressing sympathy, fond memories - and asked if she would share a couple pictures, as I would like to do a montage for my friend, the person who taught B to ride and got her started on her career. I received the pictures - along with a perfectly HORRIBLE letter, filled with all the jealousy that had been so evident 30+ years before. I was horrified and immeasurably saddened that older sister hadn’t been able to shed all that baggage.

OP, I hope you can see why I’m relating this story to you. If your sister feels so strongly about western being ‘her thing’, and you have your ‘own’ thing, I’d leave ‘her thing’ alone.

That said, if your sister shows only in - and doesn’t WANT to do anything else - pleasure and horsemanship and showmanship, why not show your horse in trail and western riding? That way, you would not be competing with her at all.

Of course if it were back in the day (in Apps anyway), you’d both be riding in everything, from showmanship to games, because our horses were nothing if not versatile.

[NoSuchPerson]

I rode English (hunt seat) and my sister rode western. It was mostly a function of personality differences that caused different things to appeal to each of us. But, I’ve always thought that part of it was a subconscious desire to avoid competing head-to-head. We already had a pretty serious case of sibling rivalry going. I shudder to think of what our relationship would have been like if we had competed in the show ring as well.

If I were you, I would concentrate on setting the AQHA hunter world on fire. Once you’ve conquered that, if you still feel the need to show western, then maybe do like ccoronios said and pick some events that your sister doesn’t compete in. If she does WP, then think about ranch pleasure, for which a HUS horse is probably better suited anyway.

[huntseat3]

She wants to get into reining. But right now we have enough horses so she’s riding and showing her horse in western walk jogs and walk jog canters and ranch pleasure. I wouldn’t show in ranch but I would do the first two and western pleasure.

[huntseat3]

[QUOTE=ccoronios;7410996]
Back about a zillion years ago, I worked at a barn. One of the show students was a kid who saw no value in school or piano classes or dance classes. All of which her [about 2 year older] sister excelled in. So B took riding lessons and blossomed (and improved a bit in schoolwork). She was my absolute FAVORITIST kid at this old barn. Deal was, older sister did NOT ride. Once B started showing, older sister was allowed to take lessons, but NOT show. Older sister was not particularly enthusiastic about this arrangement.

Years went by; B became an international level dressage rider, whom I videoed numerous times. I had a chance to visit with her one evening and felt that I sure wished we had more time to talk, she was someone I thought I’d really like to get to know. Then she became terminally ill, and died. A couple months later, her trainer (from this old barn) and I were talking, and he asked me if I knew who “X” (a famous dressage rider who’d died recently) was. I said ‘yes - we did a lot of video for her’. “But do you know who she IS?” Well obviously, I was missing something, so he asked, “Do you remember B…?” (Even today, right now typing this, I tear up thinking about this) Yup - famous dressage rider was our little B.

So I tracked down and wrote her older sister - expressing sympathy, fond memories - and asked if she would share a couple pictures, as I would like to do a montage for my friend, the person who taught B to ride and got her started on her career. I received the pictures - along with a perfectly HORRIBLE letter, filled with all the jealousy that had been so evident 30+ years before. I was horrified and immeasurably saddened that older sister hadn’t been able to shed all that baggage.

OP, I hope you can see why I’m relating this story to you. If your sister feels so strongly about western being ‘her thing’, and you have your ‘own’ thing, I’d leave ‘her thing’ alone.

That said, if your sister shows only in - and doesn’t WANT to do anything else - pleasure and horsemanship and showmanship, why not show your horse in trail and western riding? That way, you would not be competing with her at all.

Of course if it were back in the day (in Apps anyway), you’d both be riding in everything, from showmanship to games, because our horses were nothing if not versatile.[/QUOTE]
And that’s the thing-I want mine to be versatile. I see so many riders at these shows we go to that do the western then come back and compete with me in the hunt seat and all along I’m thinking ‘why can’t I be doing that?’ And the answer is pretty much because my sister doesn’t want me too. Which brings me here. I know it should be my decision but I don’t want to stir things up. That’s what makes it hard.

[huntseat3]

Here’s my horse in case you were wondering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucghbo88TVw

[MyssMyst]

I was in the same boat: I usually showed hunter, and my sister rode western. My younger sister flipped her LID when I started showing western, even though she had no interest in showing (and would be in a completely different division if she did). I only took it up because she wasn’t showing, and wouldn’t be in the same division as me even if she DID show. There were endless fights for a long time, and she’s never forgiven me for intruding on “her” turf. Here’s the problem: EVERYTHING she was interested in was “her” turf. For example: I took drama classes years before she did, but as soon as she was interested, she decided it was “her” turf, and I got shoved out by the parents since I “had the horses and she wasn’t interested.” She even flipped a lid about me taking a photography class, since photographyy was “her” thing. It didn’t matter to her that it was required for my major, and I have NO aspirations beyond getting shots of my kids/horses. All it did was build resentment on both sides. Her because she felt like she was always having to compete with me, and me because I felt like I couldn’t have any interests without her deciding to take it up then scream competition. I wish my parents had stepped up to teach us how to manage that competitiveness, and channel it productively. All she ended up learning was that she could just throw a fit about how I was overshadowing her, and I’d get shoved right back to the horses. Massive problem for her in real life. She cannot effectively deal with competition, and just throws a tantrum if she doesn’t win, and complains that she has more talent/skill/etc than the other person, without taking a moment to realize that she’s turned into someone that’s VERY difficult to work with, because her standard mode of operation when she doesn’t get her way is throwing a fit. NO ONE wants to work with her. It’s a life lesson that wasn’t learned in one arena, and has come back to bite her in everything else. If it’s a different division, she does need to effectively learn how to handle competition.

[huntseat3]

[QUOTE=MyssMyst;7412147]
I was in the same boat: I usually showed hunter, and my sister rode western. My younger sister flipped her LID when I started showing western, even though she had no interest in showing (and would be in a completely different division if she did). I only took it up because she wasn’t showing, and wouldn’t be in the same division as me even if she DID show. There were endless fights for a long time, and she’s never forgiven me for intruding on “her” turf. Here’s the problem: EVERYTHING she was interested in was “her” turf. For example: I took drama classes years before she did, but as soon as she was interested, she decided it was “her” turf, and I got shoved out by the parents since I “had the horses and she wasn’t interested.” She even flipped a lid about me taking a photography class, since photographyy was “her” thing. It didn’t matter to her that it was required for my major, and I have NO aspirations beyond getting shots of my kids/horses. All it did was build resentment on both sides. Her because she felt like she was always having to compete with me, and me because I felt like I couldn’t have any interests without her deciding to take it up then scream competition. I wish my parents had stepped up to teach us how to manage that competitiveness, and channel it productively. All she ended up learning was that she could just throw a fit about how I was overshadowing her, and I’d get shoved right back to the horses. Massive problem for her in real life. She cannot effectively deal with competition, and just throws a tantrum if she doesn’t win, and complains that she has more talent/skill/etc than the other person, without taking a moment to realize that she’s turned into someone that’s VERY difficult to work with, because her standard mode of operation when she doesn’t get her way is throwing a fit. NO ONE wants to work with her. It’s a life lesson that wasn’t learned in one arena, and has come back to bite her in everything else. If it’s a different division, she does need to effectively learn how to handle competition.[/QUOTE]
Wow, thank you.
So you’re saying that she needs to learn to deal with it, whatever decision I make?

[huntseat3]

Oh, I almost forgot about this.

A couple years ago she started taking reining lessons, and I was taking hunt seat/jumping lessons. I didn’t really enjoy jumping and wanted to do hunter under saddle, and her trainer could teach many AQHA disciplines, and the thought of me taking lessons with him infuriated her. She got over it, but wasn’t happy to begin with. She wanted me to stay with the other instructor, even though I wasn’t getting what I wanted out of the lessons.

[huntseat3]

I only started with him because he was the only one we knew around that could point me to AQHA shows. But there again, she saw it as an invasion.

[Emilia]

[QUOTE=huntseat3;7412308]
… that she needs to learn to deal with it, whatever decision I make?[/QUOTE]

You can make “whatever decision” (and my impression now is that you are just looking for someone to validate your inclination to do Western despite your sister’s protests).

She will deal with it, one way or another, that is not the point.

The point is your family cohesion and long-term relationship between you and your sister.

If I were you, I re-read Fillabeana’s post. I first thought, it was a little too much to suggest a counseling, but I would suggest the same now. At this point, you, girls, need a counselor and/or a mediator.

The way, you present your dilemma- you have some strange dynamics going on in your family and it has been apparently going on for a couple of years. Rarely, it is only one family member’s contribution.

I have a sibling and other relatives close to my age I grew up with, but our rivalry was way more mellow, albeit quite violent at times :), became sporadic, as we were growing up (hardly existent at your age, definitely), and our parents never fed into it (unlike in MyssMyst’s case, it would seem).

As Fillabeana says, there are underlying issues and they ought to be addressed, otherwise, long-term bitterness will set in on one or both sides (see Ccorronios’ and MyssMyst’s posts). That would be sad.

[Fillabeana]

she needs to learn to deal with it, whatever decision I make?

No…you need to address the dynamic, your sister’s feelings, your own ‘rights’
to do what you need to do for your own self, before you make your decision.

Make an honest effort to address her feelings.

No, she shouldn’t just have it her own way all the time (decision being, you do what you want, she learns to deal with it).
Neither should you just protect her feelings all the time (decision being, you keep to the western, stay completely out of her territory because that’s HER territory.)

What you need to do, is make your decision AFTER making an honest effort to communicate with your parents and your sister.

What might happen, is your sister says, hey, please leave me this in particular, it means a lot to me…you ride western but only in classes where I cannot compete. And your sister reciprocates, compromises something else…you make a trade-off somewhere. That part might involve horses, or not.

The other option kind of sucks.

I heard a story about a bad sibling rivalry where two sisters, both involved in a family business, went to the family/business counselor (along with parents, in their 60s) when they were both in their 30’s. At that point, they were tooth-and-nail, couldn’t get along or hardly communicate at all.
Counselor starts in, using a good technique to get things rolling, asks one sister, tell me just ONE small thing that you appreciate in your sister.
Sister A says, she works hard, she has the family business as a priority.

Sister B says, no, there’s nothing that I can appreciate in my sister.

Very sad, long story with some really messed up dynamics. The family business did not survive as the parents envisioned, neither did the family.

You have the opportunity to address this now. It isn’t just about who gets to show which horse in what class. Going ‘deeper’ into the real issue, can be about the whole family ‘winning’, about both sisters being able to help each other out and depend on each other. If you two can learn how to work out ‘I want to show western but it’s my sister’s Thing, and she feels strongly about it’ in a way that nobody has resentment about what decision was made, and how the decision was made…you two will have good skills in your future adult lives, about how to take care of parents in their old age who can’t take care of themselves, things like that.

[huntseat3]

I think I’ll bring it up to my mom. My dad, maybe too, but he’s not as understanding.

[ccoronios]

[QUOTE=huntseat3;7411745]
And that’s the thing-I want mine to be versatile. I see so many riders at these shows we go to that do the western then come back and compete with me in the hunt seat and all along I’m thinking ‘why can’t I be doing that?’ And the answer is pretty much because my sister doesn’t want me too. Which brings me here. I know it should be my decision but I don’t want to stir things up. That’s what makes it hard.[/QUOTE]

And the point to my story was that it broke my heart to find that older sister still harbored all those ill-feelings after 30-40+ years - and after her little sister had suffered through and died of a particularly difficult cancer. I’d hate for your little sis to feel the same.

It DOES make it hard. I hope you and she can come to a comfortable solution for both of you.