WAR Horses: US Army Remount Stallions... ?Sport Horse Qualities???

[mitma]

O.K., I am recovering from an injury and surgery and have some time on my hands… LOL!

And, I, like many, have an interest in THOROUGHBREDS for the Sport Horse Disciplines… :yes:

Specifically, on several different occassions, this forum has discussed the existence and availablity of different TB stallions for use in sporthorse breeding…

So, it has prompted me to think about the US Army Remount Program, where many TB stallions were donated to the Remount Breeding Programs, for use in creating horses to “compete in war…” :eek:

Given the origins of dressage, i.e., mounted military endeavor, just wonder about all of those horses produced in the US Army Remount Breeding Programs…

And, of course, there’s one in particular…

A TB stallion named Dr Howard???

From some cursory research online this past weekend, it appears he was not registered with the JC, and there is some dispute over his actual pedigree…

There are two horses with that name listed on allbreed.com:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dr+howard2

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dr+howard

However, the listed pedigree for Dr Howard (#1) is listed as a sire for other US based breeds of horses, notably AQHA and Appaloosa…

Any other thoughts or information would be greatly appreciated! Either specifics for the stallion, Dr Howard, or the program in general, and other notable/noteworthy horses…

Thanks!

Martha

[grits]

You might want to shoot an email to Josh Pons at Country Life Farm. His father (I think) was involved with the Remount, and he has an abiding interest in it.

[mitma]

Thanks Grits!

I will certainly look into that source, thanks!

[vineyridge]

There was actually a Remount Stud Book that went into private hands following the abolition of the cavalry. I used to have contact information for the person who had it, and will look for you. For some reason, I seem to recall that the same people who had were involved with Cleveland Bays. Alexander Mckay-Smith had something to do with it in the beginnings, if I am remembering correctly.
Wasn’t Gerry Owens a remount stallion?
I do have some information on some of their horses. I know that the US took and brought the German stallion Nordlicht to the US for remount stud purposes after WWII, and he ended up in Louisiana years later. Jenny Camp came from the remount breeding program. So, I believe, did Democrat.

[Kwill]

This reminds me of My Friend Flicka, and the books that followed – if you might recall, part of the story arc was the father bred Thoroughbred crosses for the calvalry, and the wild horses were messing up his breeding program!

I haven’t read the book in years, but I believe Thunderhead involved a stallion that challenged Banner, the herd stallion.

Funny to think back then there was a viable market for crossbred horses using a TB stallion and grade mares (weren’t the mares grade? I have that impression) via pasture breeding. Or perhaps there wasn’t, and it was purely fiction …

[Molly_s_Mom]

Hey,
On the second listing of Dr. Howard’s pedigree
there are some errors…The Voltaire,Equador,Idocus line is not correct and the Landgraf I,Lecapo,Wassisa,Tarantella is not
correct…wrong century:)

[mitma]

You are absolutely correct!

[QUOTE=Molly’s Mom;5528210]
Hey,
On the second listing of Dr. Howard’s pedigree
there are some errors…The Voltaire,Equador,Idocus line is not correct and the Landgraf I,Lecapo,Wassisa,Tarantella is not
correct…wrong century:)[/QUOTE]

Yes, hence the problem with allbreedpedigree.com :winkgrin:

I still use it, allbreed.com, but I do try to confirm the data independently… :yes:

From my limited “research” over the past few days, I think that the “more correct” pedigree for Dr Howard is the first one, despite the comments on allbreed denouncing that…

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dr+howard2

But, I am trying hard to find some legitamite and accurate information for this… :yes: Part of my interest in this topic relates to the fact that I breed appaloosas and am promoting them in sport horse disciplines, particularly dressage… I have several horses that originate from the Wap line (Ginnie and Jerry Hood of JG Appaloosas, Biglerville, PA), that of course, trace back to the stallion, Mansfield Comanche, who is (reportedly) is a son of Dr Howard:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mansfields+comanche

Anyway, back to the books! :eek:

Thanks!

[mitma]

I am having a good belly laugh now!

[QUOTE=Kwill;5528203]
This reminds me of My Friend Flicka, and the books that followed – if you might recall, part of the story arc was the father bred Thoroughbred crosses for the calvalry, and the wild horses were messing up his breeding program!

I haven’t read the book in years, but I believe Thunderhead involved a stallion that challenged Banner, the herd stallion.

Funny to think back then there was a viable market for crossbred horses using a TB stallion and grade mares (weren’t the mares grade? I have that impression) via pasture breeding. Or perhaps there wasn’t, and it was purely fiction …[/QUOTE]

Oh my, we will start a war if we start talking about the concept of “grade horses”…:lol: But, if my memory serves me, you are correct! :yes:

And, certainly, the book, My Friend Flicka, is one of my favorites from childhood, as I’m sure it is for so many horse peeps!

Given the concepts of “registration”, “pedigree”, “pure-bred”, “hybrid vigor”, etc… I personally just want to know WHO and WHAT produced any horse in question… then I can decide their “value”…

And, yes, the wild horses… being interested in the Appaloosa breed, I kinda have to pay attention to the origin of those pesky mustangs, at least, if one believes that the IBERIAN type of horse arrived in NA (at least for the second time) with the Spanish Conquistadors… :winkgrin:

So, back to the books!

[mitma]

VR, so glad you are participating!

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5528139]
There was actually a Remount Stud Book that went into private hands following the abolition of the cavalry. I used to have contact information for the person who had it, and will look for you. For some reason, I seem to recall that the same people who had were involved with Cleveland Bays. Alexander Mckay-Smith had something to do with it in the beginnings, if I am remembering correctly.
Wasn’t Gerry Owens a remount stallion?
I do have some information on some of their horses. I know that the US took and brought the German stallion Nordlicht to the US for remount stud purposes after WWII, and he ended up in Louisiana years later. Jenny Camp came from the remount breeding program. So, I believe, did Democrat.[/QUOTE]

Viney, thanks so much!!! I really appreciate your information and will await any further pearls! :winkgrin:

Fortunately, I did find a book online (still have to order it) that looks promising: :yes:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/War-Horse/Phil-Livingston/e/9781931721219

And, I have a lead on some equine pedigree researchers that may have a good perspective…

Thanks again!

Martha

[vineyridge]

Jenny Camp’s sire was Gordon Russell. Do a Chronicle Search. There’s some good information.

Remount Produces Horses For Three-Day
Fred Lege III January 16, 1948
The horses that our Olympic Equestrian Team will ride in the 1948 Olympics are not super horses. On the contrary, they are, for the most part, half-Thoroughbred or better. They are the result of careful selection from the U.S. Remount breeding and purchasing program. After they have shown an above-average aptitude for jumping, they are turned over to the Army equestrian team for intensified training. The results are very gratifying, when we realize that the average price the U.S. Remount was permitted to pay for these horses was $165 a head. Some countries pay $10,000 to $30,000 for horses they think will win the Olympics for them. The next most experienced horse will be the 14-year-old Democrat, a Thoroughbred gelding by Gordon Russell out of Princess Bon. He was on the three-day event team in 1940. Since the team was reformed in 1946, Col. Franklin Wing Jr. has shown him in international [show jumping] competition. [The pair finished fourth in 1948, then helped the U.S. win the team bronze in 1952 with Col. John Russell aboard.] [The three-day team won the team gold on former remounts.]

About Democrat–Gordon Russell x Princess Bon
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/democrat-jumped-history

There’s a good article about Jenny Camp on the USEA website, as she in in the eventing Hall of Fame. http://useventing.com/hof/index.php?id=4

[mitma]

Thanks again!

So very cool!

[DawnJL]

Yeah, really cool stuff. I love the COTH community. Such a wealth and breadth of great knowledge!

[Kwill]

[QUOTE=mitma;5528278]
Oh my, we will start a war if we start talking about the concept of “grade horses”…:lol: But, if my memory serves me, you are correct! :yes:

And, certainly, the book, My Friend Flicka, is one of my favorites from childhood, as I’m sure it is for so many horse peeps!

Given the concepts of “registration”, “pedigree”, “pure-bred”, “hybrid vigor”, etc… I personally just want to know WHO and WHAT produced any horse in question… then I can decide their “value”…

And, yes, the wild horses… being interested in the Appaloosa breed, I kinda have to pay attention to the origin of those pesky mustangs, at least, if one believes that the IBERIAN type of horse arrived in NA (at least for the second time) with the Spanish Conquistadors… :winkgrin:

So, back to the books! :)[/QUOTE]

My old school is showing … back in the day, we used to call unregistered horses “grade” just to indicate they had unknown or unverifiable parentage. My first horse was a “grade” appaloosa! He was wonderful, but not much of a sport horse, just a good sport. :winkgrin:

I supposed the term just came to mind when I was thinking about the book as a way to classify the mares – nowhere in the book that I can recall did they mention whether the mares were also TB, but I had the impression they were crossbreds or mustang mares, maybe quarter horses, even, although when those books were written the AQHA was in its infancy.

It’s very possible some of the mares used for remount purposes had some Morgan blood, or Arabian, and possibly draft. I believe Morgans were used quite a bit for remount breeding.

Sounds like from the actual facts mentioned here that they were using purebred TB mares and stallions to supply the army, as well. Makes sense that the breeders would do a pasture breeding situation out West, considering how little they would pay.

I think it’s awesome you have an interest in the subject, which isn’t talked about much! Good luck in your research.

[vineyridge]

Democrat was foaled at the US Remount Depot in Fort Robinson, Nebraska.

[TKR]

Democrat was also ridden by Steinkraus – I have a picture in a book he wrote of him on Democrat at MSG.
PennyG

[vineyridge]

According to a very kind researcher on Pedigreequery, the correct Dr. Howard is the 1918 Handsel x Grace of Navarre. This comes from the Half Breed Stud Book. The Porter and Janet Blair did not have a registered foal that appears there with the name of Dr. Howard, so unless the horse was unregistered, Allbreed is mistaken.

I take it you’ve found Militaryhorse.com (or .org)

[columbus]

Old enough

We still had the results of remount breeding in horses who came from the Dakotas and probably Montana and Wyoming in the early 60s. Many of the horses were hauled to the east coast as well. Sale barns out east would get a load of horses from the western states to sell. It was petering out by the time I was a kid in the 60s but you would occasionally get horses who looked like they had blood with some draft. In the 30s and 40s farmers would go west with light draft horses and they would be bred to remount stallions. The US Army via George Patton at the last brought the last remounts from Germany after WWII. These were dispersed to stallion stations in the west. The great Arabian stallion Witez II was the most notable but there were several other purebred Polish Arabians and other breeds taken from the Germans. The remounts were closed after this and horses sold to private hands at auction. They usually stayed local. Ranchers continued to use TB stallions on local mares but as the QH registry developed and fit the niche of the crossbreds the practice dies out. There are still the big solid type of horse in Montana as there was a purpose for the big crossbreds but lately the horses have come from PMU breeding in Canada and the Dakotas. QHs in the northern US tend to be bigger more all purpose horses so still show the influences more. PatO

[mitma]

Thanks again VR!

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5531870]
According to a very kind researcher on Pedigreequery, the correct Dr. Howard is the 1918 Handsel x Grace of Navarre. This comes from the Half Breed Stud Book. The Porter and Janet Blair did not have a registered foal that appears there with the name of Dr. Howard, so unless the horse was unregistered, Allbreed is mistaken.

I take it you’ve found Militaryhorse.com (or .org)[/QUOTE]

Well, the ApHC notes the pedigree of “Dr Howard” to be The Porter x Janet Blair, and as I recall, they also note that Dr Howard was an unregisterd TB… so, would love to look at actual documentation for pedigree verification… :yes:

And, I will look at the website you recommend… just back to work this week after my injury, so verrrry tired at night… LOL! Personal hobby research always goes so slowly! :lol:

[Sakura_Hill_Farm]

[quote=columbus;5532962 The great Arabian stallion Witez II was the most notable but there were several other purebred Polish Arabians and other breeds taken from the Germans.
[/quote]

I remember Witez II when he was with the Betts’ Circle Two Ranch in Parker and Cherry Hills, Colorado. His many offspring provided horses for the young folk to train, show and ride before returning them to the Betts’ for incorporation into their mareband or sale. This program served as an inspiration for our own Training/Competition Partnership Program.

[Home_Again_Farm]

@columbus;5532962

We still had the results of remount breeding in horses who came from the Dakotas and probably Montana and Wyoming in the early 60s. Many of the horses were hauled to the east coast as well. Sale barns out east would get a load of horses from the western states to sell. It was petering out by the time I was a kid in the 60s but you would occasionally get horses who looked like they had blood with some draft. In the 30s and 40s farmers would go west with light draft horses and they would be bred to remount stallions. The US Army via George Patton at the last brought the last remounts from Germany after WWII. These were dispersed to stallion stations in the west. The great Arabian stallion Witez II was the most notable but there were several other purebred Polish Arabians and other breeds taken from the Germans. The remounts were closed after this and horses sold to private hands at auction. They usually stayed local. Ranchers continued to use TB stallions on local mares but as the QH registry developed and fit the niche of the crossbreds the practice dies out. There are still the big solid type of horse in Montana as there was a purpose for the big crossbreds but lately the horses have come from PMU breeding in Canada and the Dakotas. QHs in the northern US tend to be bigger more all purpose horses so still show the influences more. PatO

In 1958 my aunt bought me my first horse. He was about 16h, a solidly built bay. He had a Wyoming shipping brand and a local expert was absolutely convinced that he was a product of the remount program. He was quite a fellow and lived into his 30s. He cost my aunt $90 which included his tack. I wish I knew what his heritage truly was.